Description:
Florence Jones Kemp talks about her life in northeast Oklahoma City and about running the award winning Florence's Restaurant.
Transcript:
Interviewee: Florence Jones, Victoria Kemp
Interviewer: Judie Matthews, Linda Williams
Interview Date: 3/5/2022
Interview Location: Florence’s Restaurant
Transcribed on: 3/9/2022
Begin transcription here
Judie Matthews: Today is March 5th, 2022. I’m here with Victoria Kemp and Florence Jones-Kemp, the owner and operator of Florence’s Restaurant.
Hello Ms. Florence, How are you today?
Florence Jones-Kemp: I’m fine.
JM: Alright, can you tell me your name and then spell it?
FJK: My name is Florence Jones Kemp. FLORENCE KEMP JONES. She said I did it wrong. But you know, when I wanted to take the Jones off, for the Internal Revenue, they said I didn’t have to. So I have used them both all this time. Sometimes I’m Florence Jones Kemp and sometimes I’m Florence Kemp Jones.
JM: They won’t know who you are. Where were you born?
FJK: I was born in Boley, Oklahoma, on 3, 5, and 31. I don’t know anything about it, but I was there.
JM: So you’re telling me today is your birthday?
FJK: Yes ,it is.
JM: Well happy birthday!
FJK: Well thank you.
JM: So you were born in Boley. When did you come to Oklahoma City?
FJK: I don’t really remember the year, but I was in the 6th grade.
JM:Okay, and when you moved here, where did you live in Oklahoma City?
FJK: I lived in the 900 block on 4th street, with my aunt Jessie Johnson and my mom. There were a bunch of us in that house, in that apartment, it was a duplex.
JM:Tell me about your neighbors, tell me about the community there. Where did you go to school?
FJK: I went to school at Douglass. I guess I must have been in the 7th grade then, and I went up until the time I graduated in 50. Which was a miracle, I don’t know how I got out of there. She’s telling me to shut up.
JM: Did you walk to school?
FJK: Yes I did, it was only about maybe 5 or 6 blocks from the school.
JM: In the neighborhood, where else did you walk? Who did you play with?
FJK: I don’t remember there being a lot of children in my neighborhood that I played with because I had to come home and cook. My mom would tell me what to put on for dinner. She was a one person provider. My dad was still in Boley, in the country. Which was no job, so she was the only one who provided for us. And she would tell me what to put on for dinner, and I would have it ready-almost ready- when she got off of work.
JM: Where did she work?
FJK: At Oklahoma Furniture Company. A furniture company called Oklahoma Furniture Company. They used to be down on, oh I can’t remember what street it was now, but they moved to Guthrie Oklahoma because it was more economical for them. And so she rode in a car with some old people that worked there, to Guthrie and rode back home.
JM: So you cooked for how many people when you were in high school, for your family?
FJK: Oh it was only 3 or 4 of us.
JM: Is that how you moved into cooking as a career? Is that what you wanted to do?
FJK: No, no. I thought I was gonna be a pretty girl. And sew. I used to sew real good in school, and so I thought I was gonna be a seamstress. And at one time, everybody was bringing their kids for keeping, so I thought maybe I’ll just keep kids, but I thought, oh no.
Victoria Kemp: *unintelliglble*
FJK: No, I couldn’t handle kids. You know how, well you can’t go to school today, you gotta stay at home and keep Curtis jr. *laughter*
JM: When did you start the restaurant?
FJK: I started in 1952.
JM: On 4th Street?
FJK: Yes
JM: What made you decide to start doing that? Was there already a restaurant in that space? Or did you start from scratch?
FJK: It had been a little restaurant right in front of the duplex where we lived. And he evidently couldn’t make it, and he just closed it up, so I rented that from him. After I came from California I had two or three dollars, and I went to the second hand store on Reno, no it was on California street, and they had all these…well you could buy secondhand chairs, secondhand stove, so I bought some secondhand stuff and brought it over and put it in that. And it was just one little space, about from here to that wall. And all of it was right there in that one room, the stove, the dishwashing pad, and everything was right there. I cooked and carried it to the table to you. Everybody could see, you were right there, it was one room, you did everything.
Linda Williams: So you did it all yourself?
FJK: Yes.
JM: Was the restaurant successful from the beginning, or was it hard work to get where you were?
FJK: It was successful from the second day. About the second day it was successful. Because I knew, I had already, my mother was working at the furniture company here and then, and she would help a guy down the street named Bob Alexander. He had a little bitty place where he sold fried potatoes on some bread, and chicken, and she would come in and help him. So we could have a little extra money, when she got off from the other job. And everybody knew me. So they would much rather come see a pretty girl at the restaurant, so they all came.
VK: Tell them how everybody knew you…because you started working when you were 14.
FJK: What do you mean, how they knew me?
VK: How they knew you. That you’d already started working when she was 14…
FJK: Well I worked at…when I was going to high school I wanted a job. I had said to a, it was guy who was kind goofy, and he said “I’ll get you a job, if you pay me. After you get your first check, you pay me.” And I said yes, I will. So he went and got me this job. *points to picture* That’s me right there at the job. Right there, the first picture. It was called Jimmy’s Newsstand. It was on 2nd street, next to the Aldridge Theater. And I paid him for the job. It wasn’t my first job because…I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Gordon’s Hot Dog, he had a little place. He had truck he carried around.
LW: It was like one of the first food trucks.
FJK: Yeah! Like a cart. But he set it across the street from there, and he had said…People would come and ask my mom …it was three girls of us, “Can I have one of your girls to help me?”, and they would always choose me, I don’t know why they wanted me to work, but anyway, I would run his little hot dog place while he went to pick up his supplies and stuff.
LW: Where was that location?
FJK: It was on 4th street, in the same, 900 block, across the street from 916.
LW: How many locations did you have before you got to the location you’re currently at right here on 23rd St?
FJK: Three. Maybe four.
LW: Do you remember where those locations were?
FJK: Yes the first one was at 916. And then, the Jewel Theater, the people who run the Jewel Theater, they opened up a restaurant next to that. They built a big building, they had rooms upstairs, spaces downstairs. Do you remember that?
Pam : I remember the Jewel theater
FJK: Yes, well they had a restaurant next to it. Anyway, they had a place in there. When this guy…
When my business was a success and my mom wanted to buy a house and move us out of there, packed in there like rats, and we moved, she found this house, and I don’t know how, but his name was Mr. House. And she bought the house that we’re in now. And when we moved out of his place in the back, he said that we had to rent them both for me to be able to stay there. Well I did it for a little while, but I thought that was wrong. When I decided I wouldn’t do it…. the rent doubled. And I moved out. That’s when he lost and moved out of his place, and I moved into the second location.
JM: Where was the second location?
FJK: Well it was right there in same block, down the street.
JM: On NE 4th?
FJK: A-huh. Mmhmm
JM: How long were you at…? Is that the picture there? That Florence’s?
FJK: No that’s the third one.
JM: That’s third, okay.
FJK: Across the street from there. Across the street from where I was.
JM: How long were you at that location?
FJK: I wasn’t at that location very long because the Urban Renewal came in. And said we had to go.
JM: Can you talk about how that sort of happened? Did somebody come to you and say “We need you need to move and we’ll help you?” or they just said “We’re taking this building.”?
FJK: Well I think people that was in the know, knew that Urban Renewal was coming. And Dr. Moon and his wife bought that, and I think when they bought that property they knew the Urban Renewal was coming. And so when they came, they just came…but the Urban Renewal gave everybody, I don’t remember how much, $500 or $200 or something like that to get out. I say get out-whatever! But at the time, they wanted me to move on Walnut St to some little dinky looking place. I said I don’t wanna move over there. So I started looking for a bigger place to move myself. And I don’t really know how I found this place, but these people lived in Texas. I don’t know if they were here and I got in touch with them or somebody told me about them, but anyway, I got in touch with them and asked if I could buy this property where we are now.
JM: Had it been a restaurant when you found it?
FJK: No, it was an old filling station with a big raggedy house in the back.
LW: I have to ask a question. Wasn’t the filling station next door, like an old Texaco or a Shell or something? Or was this remodeled?
FJK: No it was right there where she’s sitting. Right in that room there was the old filling station.
Pat: And then there was also a filling station across the street. Right across this street.
LW: Okay, that’s what a I saw in the picture. On the old picture that I saw, there was an old filling station building.
FJK: Well that’s another story
LW: You gotta tell us some of the stories. We like to able to know who’s who in Oklahoma, and where are things here in Oklahoma, the buildings and what they were. It’s just fascinating to be able to have someone live it, know it, because you’re nothing but a living legend right now.
FJK: I don’t feel like I am.
LW: Oh heavens, you are. You are a grace to the people who are here, who get a chance to listen to what you actually have to say about the things that transpired when you were here. So it’s wonderful.
FJK: Well I was very quiet, and I wouldn’t say anything to you unless you said something to me. And at the time, I was going to Douglass High School, I was very unpopular. I only had two or three friends. And my best friend was named Josephine. And when I bought this place, she decided, her and her husband decided they would buy over here. And they bought that filling station you’re talking about.
LW: That’s nice, because then you have friends that are living right across the street while you’re cooking.
FJK: Yes, but some people get jealous. Well I don’t know what happened, but me and her was really friends for a long time, and then I don’t know.
JM: When you moved up here to 23rd St, were you as successful as the 4th street location or did it take time to have clientele?
FJK: It took about two days. Everybody on 4th St, in that whole block, there and around there knew me from the restaurant. And I was awful afraid that when I moved up here I would lose my customers. So I planned ahead for that because-- I don’t know where I got this from. I built the barbershop here, where if the restaurant didn’t make it, I’d still have enough money to pay the payment on the land. About that second day and third day, when I moved here, it was bigger than the place I had on 4th Street, so I had to buy—that secondhand stove and that secondhand stuff it was just about gone. So I had to buy—I went to CW Company on California Street and ordered an ice maker, which I’d never had, and some tables and chairs. Which I only had one on the little building and a few more things, you know. The customers moved with me before the furniture got here. So they had one long table that we was serving at, and I had about maybe twenty plates, that I had to wait for people to get through eating where I could wash the plate where they could have a plate! And I think it’s so amazing, my daughter have about 100 plates or more. And one time I only had about twenty.
LW: I was gonna ask, during this time period did you have anybody else help you?
FJK: Well, my mom always, after she would come from her job she would help me. And when I was on 4th street, when it got where it was really successful, I’d have a girl in the morning and a girl in the evening, help me.
LW: And do you know around the years, around this time period… I had written out some years, it’s hard to fathom—the age you were at? Do you remember about how old you were during this time?
VK: During what time? When she moved here?
FJK: I moved here in ’69. But I don’t know how old I was. I’m not good at…
LW: You were in your 40s in the 60s. Between the 60s and 70s, you were in your 40s. That’s what I wrote down, so I can make sure I get a timeline of what… I just wonder when you got here.
FJK: I only remember that I moved here in ’69 because she remember it good.
JM: I know you were probably in the kitchen a lot of the days, where there other restaurants, or other cooks you liked going to? Either on 4th St or 23rd ?
FJK: Just me and my mom cooking. Only me and my mom. When we moved over here, of course we had 2 or 3 girls.
VK: She asked if there was any place you liked to go to.
FJK: Oh I didn’t know nothing about going out eating. I didn’t go to any other restaurants. But I do remember, I think it was McDonalds, moved to Oklahoma sometime during that time, and there was one way out somewhere. And I wanted to go out there, one day, I remember that.
JM: What are some things you miss from 4th Street? Or some of your happiest memories in that neighborhood?
FJK: Oh I was happy all the time in that neighborhood because I was busy all the time. And I knew most of the people who came in and they knew me, and I didn’t have a way to get to work. My aunt had an odd name, A.R., and she had moved here from Okmulgee I believe it was, and she had a car. And she worked at the hospital, and she would come by every morning real early, about 6 o’clock or 5:30, and get me and bring me to work. And leave me there, and my mom would always be afraid, “Did you know there’s a woman there?” But I knew everybody, and everybody took care of me. All the men around would come in and have breakfast.
JM: It always felt safe?
FJK: Always, I felt safe.
JM: When you moved up here, how was the neighborhood different? Different people you didn’t know?
FJK: I didn’t know anyone here, but there wasn’t many people around here at that time. Across the street, where Church’s was, there was a burnt up lumberyard, and I don’t remember any other…and there was a house here. And next door was a little old lawnmower shop. There wasn’t any other…and after I moved up here, my friend moved in that building over there. And then after then, they just started moving up here. There was a beauty shop down on 4th Street that moved in the big two-story building on up further than the filling station—named Ms. Wright. She was a beautician and she had several people in with her.
JM: We have some pictures of that. Was her 4th St location near your restaurant?... Some pictures of Ms. Wright’s Beauty Shop.
FJK: Oh yes…I can’t really remember where she was on 4th St, but she was in that neighborhood.
JM: In your time here, how has your clientele changed? Or how was the business changed since you’ve been here?
FJK: Well it hadn’t changed much, because I still have wonderful customers that I love and I hope they love me. And my daughter says I’m the worst interview you’ll ever have in your life, and I guess I am.
JM: Are there dishes that were very popular, that were always on the menu when you started that have changed now? Do you cook different things? Are things less or more popular?
FJK: We cook different things now, but chicken was always the main dish because a friend of my mom told me that I went into business with a prayer and two chickens. So instead of two, I just got four, I got eight, I got ten, I got a hundred. But we used to sell…one thing I miss now that I don’t sell is short ribs. We used to have short ribs, not maybe every day, but most of the time. But they’re so expensive now, we can’t afford to have them, even if I did cook them. Burger Brothers Meat Company would come and bring my meat every day.
LW: What was the name of the company?
FJK: Burger Brothers. Down there….
VK: I have some of her receipts from Burger Brothers from I don’t know how long. If you would like some, I have stacks. From before the ‘70s, from the ‘50s…but it’s so funny to see that hamburger meat was like…
FJK: 22 cents a pound.
VK: I just paid $4.50 a gallon for gas and hamburger meat was…
FJK: I can remember when bread was 10 cents a loaf. I was working in a grocery store after that, I was working in Butler’s Grocery Store, there on the corner of ….what is that?
VK: 4th and Laird?
FJK: No it wasn’t 4th and Laird. It was the next street up from there. Right down from the Lucky Heart.
VK: The Lucky Heart was my favorite. One of the few things I can remember about 4th Street.
FJK: She loved their snow cones.
VK: The Lucky Heart snow cone shop and the snow cones were delicious- A and B, that lady was just so nice. (shop at 1008 NE 4)
JM: Victoria, what other memories do you have from 4th Street?
VK: You know I claim to not be able to remember that, but what I really remember is the ice man would come and bring ice. And I remember of course the snow cone place. I remember there used to be a swimming pool at Washington Park… There did. There used to be a swimming pool. I didn’t get to go. I think I got to go once.
LW: Was it only for white people or was it for Black people?
VK: No cuz I want. I went one time. I don’t know how that happened. But I went one time to the swimming pool.
FJK: I was a very controlling mother.
VK: She was very protective. Very protective.
LW: I have a question about the time period where we had so much going on in the…you span your time through the ‘30s, ‘40s, and ‘50s, because you were born in 1931, but when it came to racial… the atmosphere, the way it was, back in your day, because I wasn’t born then, Victoria wasn’t born then, in the 40s and 50s, how was that? During the time period before you got your restaurant?
FJK: Before I moved to Oklahoma City?
LW: I’m sorry, when did you actually get here? To Oklahoma City?
FJK: Well before I moved to Oklahoma City, I very seldom saw white people.
VK: Because she lived in an all-Black town.
FJK: And the only time I really saw a lot of white people was when it was election time. They would always come to Boley to get the vote. And they would throw a big shindig, party, whatever you call it. They would bring meat and they would have BBQing, give everybody BBQing stuff in the city, where they could get your vote. And of course, if the Republicans would come this month, well then the Democrats would come the next… We’d have two days of that. Whenever that was, you know. I don’t like Kool-Aid now because they’d have that red Kool-Aid.
LW: It has always been that way during election time.
FJK: Other than that, I very seldom saw white people.
VK: And then when you moved up here, you moved to a Black neighborhood.
FJK: A Black neighborhood. And I didn’t see a lot of white people. I saw a few and I had one man that came in not too long ago, who used to come to that little place, 916 my first place. Which he used to come in and eat and was telling me about it.
LW: So how did you get to Douglass High School?
FJK: Well that was close to 916.
LW: So did you walk?
FJK: Yes, I walked everyday. Morning and evening, but it wasn’t very far. It was like maybe 6 blocks from where I lived.
LW: And what did you do in high school? What was your favorite activity?
FJK: I was dumb dumb dumb. I didn’t know nothing.
VK: She asked what was your favorite activity…So you loved to sew…
FJK: I loved to sew and make patterns. And I was also in home economics and cooking and I was very good at sewing.
VK: And you were a majorette in the school band.
FJK: Well that was when I got a little bit older, yes. My mom couldn’t afford to buy enough material for me to make what we had to make at school. And our first project was a pair of pajamas. Which, I don’t’ know why, just a scream for me. We went from that to little dresses, and I was so good at making the dresses…I think her name was Mrs. Hopper… was my homeroom teacher, anyway the sewing teacher told her how good I sew. So they would buy material and bring it to school for me to make their grandchildren dresses.
LW: I do remember my momma talking about how Douglass High School used to teach everybody in the high school etiquette. Everybody learned how to act proper during that time period. And that was in the ‘50s when she was in school. What about you when you were in school in the ‘40s?
FJK: Yeah…but I was so quiet they didn’t have to teach me nothing. Because I wouldn’t open my mouth. I was so quiet I wouldn’t say anything to anybody. I can’t remember…I can remember Mrs. Love, she married a man named Mr. Love, which was over the Home Economics group and I’d make dresses for her, and the homeroom teacher. Of course, I made straight As in that. I never was very good at anything but…I was good at arithmetic, I wasn’t good at anything else.
LW: One of the questions that I have is how did you, during the ‘50s, and I’m going back to the separation, the segregation that happened during the time period that they had segregation of whites and Blacks. How did you protect Victoria? What did you do during the time period you were raising your daughter to protect her from what was happening around you?
FJK: Well, after school I had her to work with me. When she started the school...after school she had to come to work with me and sit at a table and do her homework at the table. Until my dad…my dad had moved to Oklahoma City then and he had moved with me, and it got where when he got off of work, she got to go home with him. She wasn’t exposed to none of that white and Black and stuff…
VK: Not until I got to middle school. When they started integration.
LW: See my momma protected us too. She just didn’t have us around anything that was happening like that.
FJK: I remember, my mom said, I was gonna send her to a nursery. And she went one day. My mom said “no”. I remember she had on a pretty pink sweater that day, and she left it there and I never saw that sweater again. We didn’t go back to get the sweater, or nothing. We just didn’t send her there no more.
LW: One of the questions I have is, during your youth, I don’t know how shy you were, but do you remember the Trevas club?
FJK: Trevas? Yes I do remember Trevas. I’m trying to remember where it was. Was it down there on Eastern?
LW: Eastern and 23rd.
FJK: On the corner?
LW: Right south of the corner.
FJK: In the big building.
LW: Where Sonic is, I think that’s where it was.
FJK: Where Sonic is now….I do remember the Trevas Club because I was so shy and when I got to be a teenager my older sister named Lorienne told me she was gonna take me one day, and “I want you to stop acting like a fly on the wall and do this and do that and hold a cigarette in your hand like you’re smoking and get you a drink like you know you got a drink,” and I just never was a big pretender. I’m just me. I’m still just me. So she had me up sitting up there holding a cigarette and I had a Coke and they put a cherry in it, like it was a drink you know. I’ve never smoked and I never drank in my life. I did that one time, and I said this is not for me, this pretending. You either like me like me or you don’t like me at all. Because I’m not gonna sit up here and hold a cigarette like I’m smoking or a drink like I’m drinking and I’m not.
LW: Who we’re the people who influenced you the most?
FJK: My mom. My mom was always a hard worker and she could make some stuff out of nothing. I remember one time she made a cobbler and it was so pretty, and of course I followed her around in the kitchen. That was before she had me ……. That cobbler was so pretty. The Butter was all on top. And she gave me some to taste, and it was the worst tasting stuff I ever tasted in my life. It was a vinegar pie! I had never heard of a vinegar pie before. Everybody else loved it, but not me. No vinegar.
JM: When you were working at that newsstand on NE 2nd—what are some memories from that? You seem like you were pretty young, and there’s lots of pool halls and domino parlors. You’re saying you didn’t smoke or drink, what was that experience like?
FJK: I was about, I guess I must have been about 14, 15, 16, maybe at that time. I might have been 17 when I had that picture made. I had people that….at first I would walk home by myself from that back to 4th Street…
VK: You would go from 2nd to 4th Street and you would have to cross Lincoln. So that was a long walk.
FJK: It didn’t seem long to me then. I’m a county girl, I’m used to walking.
VK: And you were mean.
FJK: I was very mean. Very, very mean. I was quiet, but I was mean and I wouldn’t say nothing to you. But when you went too far, you was in too.
LW. So you could handle yourself?
FJK: I can handle myself.
LW: They teach you that when you were in Boley?
FJK: Yes. You don’t have to do it but once or twice, and then after then you have to worry about it anymore.
VK: Because you got your rep in?
FJK: You get your rep in. We were at the bus stop, and this little boy…they had this thing saying “You better not knock this chip off my shoulder”, you remember that? Anyway, he had the chip on his shoulder, and he kept on messing with me. And I knocked the chip off his shoulder, knocked him on the ground, and took care of business. After then I didn’t have to…
LW: No because then people knew.
FJK: And that guy, the funniest thing about it, that same guy came in this restaurant. After we were grown, and everything up here. I think he passed away now.
JM: So you weren’t intimidated by anything or anyone, on Second?
VK: But your mother was so worried…
FJK: My mother was worried about me doing the walk. But I could handle myself.
LW: Okay I have to ask you about Deep Deuce. And the area down there when Charlie Christian was here playing, Jimmy Rushing was here playing, all that. Did you ever go down there and live it up during that time period?
FJK: No, I didn’t. I never went to see him play or anything, but …
LW: You talking about Charlie Christian’s daughter?
FJK: Ah-huh, she plays the piano. Me and her got to be friends after I moved up here.
LW: Interesting.
JM: What do you think had been the secret to your success as a business owner and as a cook and as sort of an icon of Oklahoma City? What have you done to be so successful and so well-known?
FJK: I don’t know. I really don’t. But I was always smart as far as working was, and I used to go to the field, I used to want to go and help at the field, but my daddy—I was a daddy’s child—he wouldn’t make me go. I would go and try to do everything, but he said “You go home and bring us some water.” And of course, I have a sister that’s two years younger, everybody else loved her, but he loved me unconditionally. He wouldn’t let nobody touch me.
JM: How many brothers and sisters did you have?
FJK: Two sisters, two brothers.
LW: Were you a middle child?
FJK: Yes, and that middle one always gets the blunt end of everything. And of course, I got the blunt end because I was his pick. There’s twins in my family, a girl and a boy, and I have one younger sister. That’s why I’m right in the middle of two twins. The twins.
LW: Did you ever…when did you ever meet and marry your loved one?
FJK: Well, I met him and I don’t remember what year it was. We had some conflict in the family…
VK: Gon’ tell that story.
FJK: Huh? Don’t tell it?
VK: Go ahead and tell that story.
FJK: Oh my god. But at the time, I weren’t in business in the beginning. I tried to get my mom and my sisters to come in with me and they didn’t want to. My mom told me, said “No you go head on, and after you get started I’ll help you.” But my sisters and them didn’t want to have nothing to do with it. And after it was successful, I don’t remember, but they came in and told me “You’re making so much money, we want to be partners.” And I said “Oh no. Oh no. When I wanted you and I needed you, you wouldn’t help me.” And at that time, I had met these three handsome men, and they had chose a sister. Ya know, two of them had chose a sister. Well one of them chose me, and another one chose my younger sister, and theirs didn’t work out. At that time, he was there for me. We had to dip around, but he was there for me. And I think that’s one reason why we got together so good. But I loved him unconditionally, and I still do. Of course he has several other wives, and everybody think we broke up because we didn’t love each other. But he used to work at Oklahoma City Golf and Country Club.
LW: On Lincoln? Oh in Nichols Hills?
FJK: Yes he used to work there. I don’t know what happened but he lost his job and he decided he didn’t want to live in Oklahoma no more. He moved to California, Palo Alto California. He said “I’m going and then I’m gonna get established and then you come on, you and the little baby come on.” And I said “Why don’t you stay out here and get another job?” Because I have my business here, and we had started buying a home here. But he just couldn’t see that. So when we sent for me, I had a Mercury…an Oldsmobile, a green and white Oldsmobile. He sent his sister here to help me move to California. And of course, I packed up a few things, left my mother with the business, and went to California. And I stayed out there maybe two months or so. My momma got tired of trying to run my business, ya know, and she told me you better get back here, I’m tired. I couldn’t talk him into coming back here. So I left California, me and her, in the car.
LW: This was in the ‘60s?
VK: I don’t know because I was…
FJK: I don’t know. She was about three years old, I think…But anyway, I was trying to get back here so fast I got a ticket. One of them places coming through there, it was tricky, and you had to pay the ticket. She was talking about “I wanna go to the bathroom, mama, I wanna go to the bathroom.” And I was trying to get to a place where she could go to the bathroom. Anyway, long story. You asked me about my husband, right?
LW: Yes.
FJK: And he came…that’s why we broke up. He wouldn’t come back here and I wouldn’t go there. I have love letters that he wrote me, wanting me to come and how much he loved me, and this that and the other.
LW: You still have them?FJK: Yes. I have some of them. I tried to get her to read one of them, and I tore it up, but I decided I would keep some of them. So I have some at home in my drawer. I’m gonna get those out and read them. He…”Remember this, I’m always your husband.” But then he went out and married two or three other women. And had other children. So…but I still love him.
LW: I have a question about The Green Book. And I’m not sure when the Green Book actually came out. But I do remember my aunt talking about the Green Book when people had to travel through Oklahoma or any other place. Was your place listed as amongst those in the Green Book, that people could actually stop and get food?
FJK: No, not that I know of. I don’t know anything about the Green Book.
LW: That’s where people could travel through, and they couldn’t stop at establishments because they weren’t welcome. Some of the parts of Oklahoma were considered sundown towns, and you couldn’t stop in those places.
FJK: I’ve heard of them but…
LW: Did that ever happen to you when you were traveling?
FJK: No because I never traveled. When I got to Oklahoma, I stayed here, until…I worked from 6 in the morning until 12 at night usually. We went, I did take my mom to California to see my husband, and I drove her to California to see her sister. But at the time I didn’t know that she was still in the whorehouse...well, in the house. What do you call them other than that? The playhouse? Or whatever it is? I didn’t see was. She lived in Stockton California. And my mom had an older brother, that had got old, and he came to live with us a while. She wanted to take him to California to see her. My uncle, which was her brother, and her and me and my husband, drove them to California so they could see her. Not knowing…and she saw us for about 30 minutes. And she had to go back to the house. The house I was talking about. And she sent us on.
VK: But she sent you to her house.
FJK: She sent us to her house in Stockton.
VK: The family home. Let me clarify that.
FJK: Yes, but she had to stay. I’m trying to think of the place she was, because they ruled those houses out in California. You had to go to Nevada.
JM: You were talking about how people who knew that Urban Renewal was coming sort of told you---were there businesses and friends of yours that were in that south of 8th/4th Street area that never recovered, that tried to move and places you miss going to?
VK: Simmons’ Photography.
FJK: I guess some of them, but I didn’t know if they recovered or not, but…
VK: Mr. Simmons took my favorite picture of me, that I have, and I don’t know how old I am, but I’m a baby and I’m holding up a phone. I’m already handling business.
LW: She has the same one!
VK: Do you have that?
LW: Is this a Black photographer?
VK: Yes…okay, so Mr. Simmons had to move from that area. I don’t know if he was on 4th Street. Was he?
FJK: Yes, he was next door. Next door from the original place.
VK: Okay, so he moved to 23rd St as well, across from the Governor’s Mansion. And then they forced him out of there, so they could make room for the History Center. But I wanted to show you this. I have a friend whose aunt died, and she left him her home. So he’s going through stuff. And he sent me this. It doesn’t have the year on it, but you see it says East Side Round Up Rodeo.
LW: Yeah they still have that.
VK: Now look at this—Florence’s Restaurant at 905. So she started at 916, and then at some point she moved to 905. Would you like to have that? I can ask him if he’s interested in donating this to the library.
JM: absolutelyVK: You ask her what it was like…did you guys have police that walked the beat at that time?
FJK: We did have a policeman on 4th St that walked the beat. And I trying to remember his name…
JM: Was he white or Black?
FJK: He was Black. And he told me at that time, to get me a little gun.
VK: And she has followed his instruction to this day.
FJK: I take it everywhere I go.
LW: Do you know how to use it?
VK: She hits the target in the forehead and the chest.
FJK: Before they had where you would carry guns…to get this permit I had to class. And so I went to class, and took the class, and then you had to go demonstrate. So I hit the target right where I was suppose to hit ‘em, and he looked at me and he said “Mmmmmm, I thought you was like these other women that come in here. Hmmmmm” She gets upset now because I carry it. I feel undressed when I don’t have it with me. But the gun that I bought at that time, someone stole it out of my house. So I have a Colt.45 now that I takes around.
JM: Had there ever been any trouble at the restaurant?
FJK: No. I’ve been so lucky. At one time we used to have a lot of preachers that would come in for breakfast and sit around, and somebody started something in there one time all those Reverends come out with they pistols. So I’ve never had any trouble. At one time I had one man that hit a man and knocked him on the floor. But other than that, I’ve had no problems with…
VK: Tell them about the man that…I can’t remember which one, but she said “Reverends” but there were also a lot of pimps in those days that would come in and one came and tried you, didn’t he? He asked you something, he patted your pocket or something and you drew on him.
FJK: That was on 4th Street!
VK: She drew on him and said “Is this what you looking for?!”
FJK: We were closing up that night, and we was coming out and him and his friend came out…so I went and I said “is this what you’re looking for?” And they all backed in, and I never had no more trouble after then. That was on 4th Street. Up here I never had to. I never had to draw my weapon up here.
JM: My last question is, what’s your favorite thing to cook?
FJK: I don’t know. I’ve cooked so much. I guess chicken. Because I’ve cooked chicken, chicken, chicken.
VK: But is that your favorite?
FJK: Everybody loves chicken.
JM: What do you think if your best dish?
FJK: Chicken. Peach cobbler.
VK: Her episode of Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives has gotten over a million views…
LW: What’s the name of that? Repeat one that again.
VK; Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives, so the episode that she was on has gotten—just her segment, not the whole thing, but just her segment--has gotten over a million views. And she in the top three chicken dishes on Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives.
LW: So I have a couple of questions for you. First of all I want to congratulate you on getting the James Beard Foundation Award, which I guess is a first for Oklahoma, am I right? And I’ll you expound on that one Victoria, or you Ms. Florence.
FJK: I had no idea what it was.
LW: How did you come to find out that you won it?
FJK: She told me. They called her.
VK: They called the restaurant. Will Timmons answered the phone and he came to me and said “Somebody’s on the phone. Something about an award.” And I said “Another one?” Because she just got an award last weekend, last Sunday, at Ebeneezer. She got an award from Ebeneezer, and I thought it was something having to do with that. When I got to the phone, and honestly I don’t remember what the woman said, I remember her saying The James Beard Foundation in Chicago, and I honestly remember her saying “You’re a winner, that you are a winner.” And I told her, I said “I absolutely understand what you’re saying, I’m comprehending.” I understood what the James Beard Award was. “I understand the gravity of this, but I’m not gonna remember anything about this conversation when we hang up and I can’t really.” And she said, “We send you a letter.” And I think that night I looked in my inbox and there was a letter from the James Beard Foundation. When I hung up the phone from talking to the lady, and went to her and I grabbed her shoulders, and I said “You have just won a James Beard Award”, and she said “Girl, I don’t know anything about no Beard. Go and see about that chicken.” And I just remember I was probably like a deer in headlights, because I was like, okay, this is gonna take a little bit more explaining. It probably took…I found out about it on Monday, the announcement didn’t come out until Wednesday, so I couldn’t tell anybody, so I knew for two days before it came out. Every morning when I would get up, I’d have a new revelation, so the next morning I’m laying in my bed, googling on my phone, and I go in her room and say “Nobody in Oklahoma has ever won one of these.” And she’s still just like “What? Are you ready to go?” And I think the next morning I went in, my mother watches the Pioneer Woman religiously…
LW: I love the Pioneer Woman.
VK: My momma watches her every weekend, Saturday and Sunday. So the next morning I went in and said “The Pioneer Woman doesn’t have one of these.”
LW: God bless you. I heard that you do not serve breakfast anymore in the morning. But do you still make peach cobbler?
FJK: Yes
LW: I want some so bad. And do you make any bread pudding?
FJK: Not anymore.
VK: We gave away that recipe. The Cowboy Hall of Fame…what’s it called…there’s video of us giving away that recipe and we make it on their website. It’s called...I can’t remember what their series is called…it was amazing. When I saw it, when they talked about it, I don’t know who the man is, who does the voiceover. I can’t remember if he’s a Florence’s customer or maybe he’s from Boley, but there was some connection…
LW: Black?
VK: Yeah, I believe so. And that is a pertinent question considering you ask her how her business has changed, and she said it hadn’t changed very much. It actually has. Because she’s gone from being 99.99% Black people to now her clientele is more than 50% white. And not only just Anglo, but all facets, Chinese, everybody. And not only that, we see everybody. We see Mary Fallin, senators, whatever to streetworkers. Absolutely. Mick Cornett, Kanye West, couple of those basketball players. I’ve never seen a Thunder player, but you know, what’s his name…Danny Glover was in here. I reposted that on Facebook. He was the nicest man. He was actually in town campaigning…he was Feelin’ the Bern/ He was campaigning for Bernie Sanders.
FJK: Whats the cowboy’s name?
VK: Toby Keith.
FJK: He came in and told me “I want of those greens.” Toby Keith. He’s been in here several times. More than that. One time he came in and I look at him and I said “Aren’t you…?” And he said “Yes, I’m Toby Keith.”
LW: I’m just so glad and happy to know that you are still existing, you’re still thriving, you’re still serving the community and it’s great. And your food is fantastic. I’ve already had it several times. But I just want to say Thank You. I do, I just want to say Thank you, Ms. Florence. I appreciate you, and we do love you in the community. Keep it up. Because you’re a blessing to the community.
FJK: Thank you. I don’t fee any different but thank you.
VK: So I have a question. We had an interview yesterday with 405 business and they were...she asked some interesting questions just about…It isn’t even that the questions were interesting, as much as she just seems so fascinated. So if she were to tell the story of her life, what would be the most interesting to you about her?
LW: The most interesting to me is that she has done this singlehandedly for over 70 years, with minimal help. No one does that. You can’t do that. You cannot. With minimal help? That’s crazy.
VK: People don’t want to work that hard.
LW: And not just that, it’s that she has persevered through time. Through different locations. No matter who you have coming through here, they appreciate you. Cuz you’ve gotten all kinds of people coming through, to come and experience Florence’s. Your food is fabulous, cuz I’ve had it. But it’s the idea that you’re still here. And you’re gracious. It’s not like you’re not you’re behind the scenes. I’ve seen you come out, and you came out and talked to me one time when I was here. I do remember that. So that’s why I wanted to say thank you.
FJK: I want to thank everybody who has helped me along the way. I’ve had a lot of ‘em.
JM: I think it’s important…to me it’s fascinating, that you can be a female business owner. And maybe we think that’s more possible now. To carry over…From my perspective, probably the youngest in the room, to see the changes, and when I look back on history and the discrimination that kept happening to the African American community, to have that sort of success after being moved, to continue to have that cultural remain, I think is important to document. That’s why I’m excited to hear these stories, so fascinating and wonderful to me, to see that perseverance. Despite having that community around 4th just destroyed.
FJK: Thank you.
VK: I always tell people, we had everything Tulsa had, we just didn’t have the wealth. We were able to sustain ourselves. And when we lost the grocery store and it seemed like everybody was just so up in arms, what are we gonna do? But you know, we were able to feed ourselves. We had grocery stores, we had multiple grocery stores in that neighborhood. When Tinseltown opened, and everybody was so fascinated that Magic Johnson had opened a black-owned movie theater. But we had movie theaters, we had multiple movie theaters. This is not new. So I’m glad that you are documenting. There’s nothing new under the sun. This is not the first time we did this.
JM: Tulsa got a lot of attention and that’s good, but I want to demonstrate that, well one, everything was, and maybe still is, a powder keg. When we talk about when Dunbar library was started, the library board segregated on the same story you hear, that Black boys were flirting with white girls at the library. You know, and that it was a powder keg, Tulsa could have been anywhere. It was still destroyed maybe not through violence, but with the pen. Saying we need this land, so it’s just as important to document what was there, the same way Tulsa had models and stories and deep investigations. I want to make sure that’s done for Oklahoma City too.
VK: I do think people don’t really realized that someplace this week, there was some people sitting in a room deciding what was going to be in this spot in 50 years. That’s what cities do, they plan, fifty, sixty, years in advanced. And if you look at the…I can’t remember what I looked at, but I was at the library downtown, and talked about Bricktown, and that the name of it would be Bricktown. They talked about the OU medical complex. It was like in the ‘40s and ‘50s. They already planned this. They had to start working the plan. They had to do what they did to be able to do what they wanted to do.
LW: And they strategically plowed through the Black community to get those things accomplished.
VK: Right, right, but I tell people this. It is so funny to me that people, especially people of color, some of them do not seem to comprehend this. Northeast Oklahoma City is the sweet spot. We are where everyone wants to be. We’re near everything. We’re in the entertainment district, the innovation district is gonna be amazing, what they’re planning is gonna be amazing. And we’re close downtown. We’re close to Bricktown. We’re close to the Oklahoma River. We’re close to everything.
FJK: We’re close to the casino!
VK: There is the place everybody wants to be.
FJK: …I haven’t been there in a long time actually…oh what is it you want me to go?
JM: So we can end today. If there’s anything else you want to share, now’s the time.
VK: Anything else from when you were on 4th street that you can think of that might be interesting?
FJK: Oh I was so mean, one time this man was acting up in there and I just picked him up and threw him on out the door. And other than that, that’s all. Already had my rep up.
VK: But you know what, she could probably go to jail for this now. But she sent me to the grocery store. And I couldn’t have been more than 6 or 7 when she sent me to the grocery store. I couldn’t cross the street. This building is still there. It’s on of the few buildings that’s still on 4th Street, and it’s just west of the Jewel Theater. And it’s boarded up. It’s doesn’t look like it’s in bad shape, but it’s boarded up, it’s for rent. She needed something from the grocery store. And she put me across the street, across 4th Street, which was a busy street. And sent me to the grocery store, I walked into the grocery store, I don’t remember how old I was but I couldn’t count money good yet. She gave me money, and I went in and got whatever it is she wanted. And my grandmother had been saying all day, “Oh I don’t have any soap. I need some soap. I don’t have any soap at home”. And I remember, I grabbed a bar of soap, and when I got to the counter I gave the woman all the money I had, and I didn’t know if I had enough to also buy the soap. And the woman took it, she rang me up, she gave me back whatever. And I came up, and she was watching for me when I got to the restaurant, so she could come get me back across the street. I came back across the street and got the soap out of the bag, and I went and took it to my grandmother, and I was like “I got you this soap.” My grandmother grabbed me and she hugged me so tight, she said “This is the sweetest thing, but I needed washing powder.” But you think about that. That probably at 6,7,8 I walked to the grocery store all by myself and I had a very overprotective mother. But she allowed me to walk to the grocery store by myself in the neighborhood. You know, just speaks volumes of what it was like. I don’t remember us having like we have now. We don’t have a lot of mental illness and people who clearly have drug problems. We used to, but we don’t have that much now. I don’t remember any of that on 4th Street.
LW: What’s the most rewarding part about getting older?
FJK: Other than being here, being able to get up and do something for myself. Because there’s a lot of people my age that can’t do for theyself. But I can still take a bath!
LW: That’s true. A lot of people can’t do that.
JM: Alright, thank you everyone!