Description:
Bruce Fisher talks about his youth growing up in Chickasha, Oklahoma, and Oklahoma City, about his famous mother, Ada Lois Sipuel Fisher, and more.
Interviewer: Bruce, thank you for coming and participating in this centennial interview. You know I'm honored for you to be here and I'm thankful that your mother had you. [laughter] Because your mother was very important to me and so I wasn't gonna do that many interviews but I wanted her, I wanted to make sure I interviewed you and as many people in your family as I could. We're doing this project and it should be on the public, in the public archives worldwide in the library.
Bruce Fisher: Okay bless you.
I: So, we’re gonna just start kinda just fresh is gonna be kinda like an autobiography of you.
BF: Okay.
I: So you can just get relax and just be yourself.
BF: Alright.
I: Please tell me your name.
BF: Bruce Travis Fisher.
I: Your birthdate?
BF: 3/24/52. That’s March the 24th, 1952.
I: Our relationship?
BF: Friend.
I: And where are we?
BF: At the Oklahoma City Metropolitan Library, downtown.
I: Where were you born Bruce?
BF: I was born in Chickasha. Chickasha is probably about 40 miles southeast of Oklahoma City relatively small community, was born in 1952 in the hospital there which was fairly unique for African Americans in that time period. My cousins were the same same time period my mother's sister her kids and one of which is my first cousin that was born 3 days after I was born was born at home so it was kind of unusual for have African American kids born in hospital in Chickasha even at that time.
I: Really? What was the name of that hospital?
BF: Grady Memorial Hospital. Grady County.
I: Could you talk a little bit more about how it was that you ended up being born there since it was so unusual?
BF: Well my family my grandparents had moved to Chickasha following the Tulsa race riot and so that's where my mother was born was in Chickasha and they grew up in Chickasha and so
mom got pregnant with me in her last year in law school [laughter] and so she was people would ask her a lot of times, did your son go to law school? she says well kind of in a sense.
I: That’s excellent! She got pregnant with you.
BF: In the last year in law school. Yeah.
I: At OU?
BF: And so it was during that time, after she finished law school that I was born, which is in March. She graduated in August of 1951 and I was born March 24th, 1952 so she was very much pregnant with me at the time she graduated.
I: Man, she got two, she had a degree and a degree. How about that, that is, that’s exceptional. With that, with that tied into your birth what do you remember about the Tulsa race riots? Do you remember anything significant that you'd like to share right now since they were trying to get away from there.
BF: Well you know again the Tulsa race riots would have occurred in May 31st, 1921 and so that was even before my mother was born but as it turned out you know my grandmother is 7/8 white so you know she would look more white than she would look black and so during the race riots she was encouraged to get out from down in Greenwood, she was living in Greenwood and…
I: Your grandmother?
BF: Yeah, my grandmother.
I: Was living in Greenwood?
BF: Yeah.
I: In Tulsa?
BF: Yeah, and my grandfather.
I: And your grandfather?
BF: Yeah, my grandfather is very much African-American more, I mean he was very dark-complected, so he happened to be, he was a minister at the time and he happened to be out of town and so my grandmother was there alone at the time so anyway following that ordeal they decided that he would move to Chickasha so he moved out keep my grandmother moved to Chickasha and that's so I don't remember you know that mom used to talk about it with big momma spoke to her about the Tulsa race riot alot and growing up you know high school when she would make mention of this and even in college I mean it was just like I didn't have any any comprehension of what she was really saying so it wasn't until a few years ago that during the course of the Commission to study the Tulsa Race Riot did all of the pieces kind of finally get put together in my head for me to understand that our family had a direct connection to and moved to Chickasha as a result of what they had witnessed in during the Tulsa Race Riot. So even though mom which she was born what which is 28 something like that it may be years
after Tulsa race riot but but she remembers my grandmother talking about in the and my grandfather talking about my grandmother particularly cause she saw it, talking about the Tulsa race riot. Now, Chickasha was also the last place that a documented lynching occurred in Oklahoma.
I: Chickasha?
BF: Yeah, the last documented lynching you know and of course lynchings are not all lynchings are documented but the last documented of lynchings
I: That’s significant.
BF: Look at the list of lynchings in Oklahoma, look at any of the any of the resource material pertaining to that you'll see that Henry Argo was supposedly the last African-American Oklahoma that there was documentation that was lynched literally the mob you know went to the jail house and extracted him from the gym and lynched him. That occurred in Chickasha and it had occurred during my mother's my mother's lifetime she remembers the the frantic activity within the Chickasha community about that man getting guns and so forth and so she remembered that so it was you know there were a couple of episodes that took place in our family that that were very very horrific and in which we have some and I so I heard stories about this kind of stuff going up it must've it didn't make any sense until until recently.
I: Bruce I had the first-hand experience, your mother was my major professor at Langston your mother was a masterful storyteller and she she was like Sony she was like Sony 'cause she could give you a vivid picture of what she was teaching and what she was telling you so I know that these are emblazed in your mind
BF: Yeah.
I: I know from experience with my dialogue and would be in her classroom. I know these emblazed in your mind. These also firsthand accounts. These are first person stories and it's significant that you have this opportunity. Your children will be able to have this opportunity and her teaching gift, oh we hope to preserve with this interview. When you were growing up in Chickasha knowing that that was the last place for a lynching had occurred and it was such a small community and we were still in the throes of racism at that time, what was it like?
BF: It was great. Keeping in mind that growing up at the time I had no idea of the lynching that took place but my my recollections about growing up in Chickasha.
I: That’s good.
BF: Was that you know during the time that I was growing up in Chickasha, mama was working and her and dad were living in Oklahoma City so my grandmother was the one that really raised my sister and I from the time I was born and up until around the third grade. I spent most of my early years in Chickasha just having an awful lot of fun, but you know most and it appears that most people in the African American community kids were relatively insulated from racism because we were living within our own communities and only ventured out for some specific reason other than that we didn't see racism every day.
I: Right.
BF: We were enjoying life, playing marbles and me riding on the back of the pickup truck to the haul pen[?] every day which is the highlight of my day and you know things like that I mean it was just it was it going to the swimming pool and we didn't know that it was a segregated swimming pool. We didn't know that the one on the other side of town was bigger and better than the one that we were swimming in on our side down we were just having fun with our swimming pool. We didn't know that if we went downtown at least I didn't get the reason that reason we always ate and drink plenty of stuff before we went downtown was because we wouldn't be able to get anything to eat when we are in downtown, had no idea that the reason my mother would take the jeans my grandmother take the jeans and put ‘em around the side of my waist was because we couldn't try them on before we bought him in the first place we didn't know any of that stuff we just growing up and life was seem to us to be you know really really really good. So I had a wonderful wonderful childhood growing up and I had no real awareness you know of racism in Chickasha being small town like it was you know I lived at 605 South 1st Street when I was growing up there and about four blocks away was there a little corner store and I mean I had free reign to me before I did first 2nd grade it wasn’t unusual for me to take off and my friends and head three blocks away to the store we had little fear of any of any harm you know coming to us.
I: Yeah.
BF: Life was just just really really really good small town in Chickasha for me growing up. I lived across the street from what was Lincoln high school Lincoln school which was the prime to Brown versus Board of Education along time thereafter most schools in Oklahoma remain segregated but certainly doing my early years growing up in the school system in Chickasha was segregated so there was one school consolidated school 1st through 12 which is right across the street from where where I grew up my were at my grandparents lived and so my sister being a little older than I was in school so I spend my days going back and forth to school walking the halls and everybody knew me everybody knew big Mama and so I just had I had total reign free run of the school. One day they tried to send me to daycare which was up on the Hill down the street from where we live and I think I went I went for about half a day and got bored with that and left and walk back home and then just started going back to school everyday so it was my daily routine was usually get up with my sister got up and and and and get my breakfast and stuff and go to school and walk the halls of the school doing that. Actually reading the principle there was a guy named Mr. Hancock and Mr. Hancock had it you know his his his his wife taught there too but he was a pretty strict guy and the school was it was an excellent school so I spend most of my time walking the school and except I had to avoid one lady who had what is your name I can't think of her name right now but she had, she would if she called me walking to class walking halls she said you know Fisher come here she made me come in her room and she didn't want to hear about it one or two things she did she did make me sit out in her class and listen or she’d make me tell everybody what she had and what she had was a strap and a paddle and I had to recite it every time. Fisher, what do I have. A strap and a paddle. That’s right. So I usually avoided her class, try to sneak by her class and another thing that I did in school it was really neat was the students could pay me to go across the street to the canteen
to buy them snacks and so you know they would give me money not right about the money that go across the school go cross the street to the little canteen bow I've got everybody’s order, you gonna take it back and walk into classrooms and handed out, I had a great childhood growing up finally the principle told me one day Travis do you want to go to school and I said yeah.
I: You weren’t going to school you were just hanging out at the school that’s what I am getting
BF: He said do you want to go to school, I said yeah he said OK so next thing I know they talked to my grandparents talked to my and I was in school so I ended up getting enrolled in school a year earlier than I should have and remain that way all the way through through school so is always a year ahead of me which you know caused some concerns because I was you know size wise and in maturity was a year behind everybody but I grew up not paying any attentions now so when I got to Oklahoma City it got to be an issue again when I got to Edwards elementary school in Oklahoma City they they realized that they asked my parents if they wanted me to be back in the right grade they said no so I moved forward
I: They let you moved forward?
BF: No I just stayed where I was. I mean I was already forward.
BF: Yeah you were you were you were forward. Yes because you had a begin right that.
BF: In a school year so so everybody in my class is always a year older older than I am …..(13:22) that’ why I am going to school so it was a really wonderful time it was in a Chickasha. Everything I remember about Chickasha, it was it was good.
I: That’s excellent. Now I want you to give us the name of your parents I know the name of your mother but I would like for you to say it for the purposes of our interview the actual name of your parents
BF: My mother was Ata Sipio, Ata Lois Sipio was maiden name and she married she became Ata Louis Sipio Fisher. My father's name was Warren which was the initial that he always used, he didn't talk about what his middle name was. Fisher was his last name.
I: What were your parents like in your eyes growing up?
BF: Well they were pretty special people again the the early years I spent watching my parents come to visit us my sister now on weekends you know maybe once or twice a month they would come to Chickasha with my grandmother was keeping us and visit us. Besides from that I mean they were busy trying to get a career established in Oklahoma City and my mom trying to get the legal practice going and my dad was working Tinker field at the time so it would be those weekend visits will be will be be awful special when they would come to Chickasha and spending the weekend Sunday night when it was a time for them to go back to Oklahoma City was always heartbreaking to see them leaving but then you know that's just the way it was. And till we moved I was in 3rd grade when my sister and I was moved Oklahoma City, mom never got me a house in Crabity.
I: Okay.
BF: And we moved to Oklahoma City at that time but they were always I grew up I grew up basically you know my dad was the ruler of the world I mean he was he he he started out as a he went to mechanic school when he was in World War II in his war years to be a mechanic. By the time I will move to Oklahoma City you know my recollections of him was working at tinker field and on the weekends working in the garage. He worked at the Pier Barnaby's garage. Pier Barnaby he was a classmate of mine at Northeast high school named after his father you know Pier and Pier had a garage my dad worked there on the weekend so I would go with him into the garage on the weekends and and work in the other worked in the Tinker field. Eventually I began as I was 4th 5th 6th grade I remember my dad would he had a blackboard living in the house in Carbondale. In those days there’s a living room meant what it said the living room that's where everything took place was in the living room and so behind In addition to the TV being there and sofa being there in a comfortable chairs being in the living room my dad behind the front door it was a blackboard that was it was amounted to the to the door and I used to see my dad working you know problems in our being elementary school. Problems looked pretty simple to me I mean A+B and I figured it had to be C you know I know that much about alphabet so I'd have my friends over and I would be mimicking what I saw him working on so I sent him down there and I'd have A plus B equals C you know where it was I would learn later that he was my dad he started in college at Hampton University because the War. So he was finishing up his some educational classes he was taking at Douglas. Douglas opened a college course at that time. Douglas at one time and that was taken so
I: I didn’t realize that
BF: and so he was taking courses at the time will eventually moved from a warehouseman position to Tinker field to end up being the head of the equal opportunity Division I reporting directly to the base commander during the big days of heat primitive action and so everybody work to tinker field who had a problem but I always come to my dad because he was he was a person it was in the best position to influence informative issuesrelated to black folks in Tinker field. So I grew up you know seeing and him this being the most important person that I knew of had no idea with momma statue was you know basically I knew people got to be like her I knew that she was you know so but I thought dad was amazing he was the person everybody came to see all the time so
I: At the home?
BF: Yeah yeah that’s what I saw.
I: Okay.
BF: He was a but they're both were. Mom was was really special because she was in very very attentive and loving and compassionate mean apparently is all you know most parents are and she was very special because she made best popcorn balls and and that kinda stuff and we want to do it with kids playing she was always giving us you know treats and stuff so so she was special for that reason and kind of knew that if there was some problems that kind of erupted that she would be she had a lot of courage I remember one time something like in Carbondale we walked ahead with school which is right over the tracks from where we live right down the
street and there was one incident that these kids from Douglas kept bullying us on our way home from school and even to the point of pulling out knives on us and I told mom about it and so she said OK and so for the next couple of days she began to she arranged to be from Langston to where we were walking at she saw this episode you know happen and she jumped out of the car and and threatened you know the boys and and and they had nizer stuff and and in spite of that she was right that's not my fault and they had knives and stuff
(phone ringing)
BF: So she was... my mama... these guys from Douglas they were obviously must be high school and they were the they were you know bullied us and even to the point that showing us knives and those kind of things to thread missing and so after telling my mom about it then she arranged that happened to be at this place with it usually the problem usually occurred several days she left Langston apparently was raised to be there an and and one day it happened again and she was there and she jumped out of the car and confronted the kids and and to me that was a big deal, cause I mean I saw knives and I thought that you know that they were not listening that was: remember this was doing the same kind of years that that student Douglas was killed with a knife in the bathroom or something so it was it was not we should protest it could have been so so I knew she seemed to be somewhat courageous you know that occasion that occasion so but again at this time in my life i had no idea of what she had gone through with the with the case for admission to the University of Oklahoma i had no idea that you anything like that but so i still I just knew her as being very you know compassionate you know parent and and she wouldn't really afraid that that that that resonated mean something that she didn't seem like she was really afraid of much of anything and of course around the kitchen table you know I heard these discussions that had my dad were having about world issues and race relations and those kind of things so I knew that I from those discussions to that they that they were both pretty pretty seriously interested in things and so as I grew up you know my impressions of both of them with their move pretty neat people I thought my dad was the if more important than the two.
I: That's very significant. At your house, you saw was what’s going on at the house and that's what you reported you had no idea.
BF: By the time I got in high school and and and began to find out that she was a lawyer and I figured out what that meant then you know also knew that I could always tell my parents the truth and they would get together and get the situation worked out. I was at every confidence they get that that would happen if they would get the situation worked out. If it was something that you know if it was something like riding a motorcycle and getting in an accident and scaring my mother to death and see that she would not let me riding anymore I knew that well I need to talk to dad about this so we can get her pass that you don't get the bike fixed so I can get back on the road. If it was something like a occasion with that had a problem with it it seemed to suggest that needed some legal help then they would get together on it and Mama would take the lead and get it all worked out so I needed between the two they could buy take care just about anything, anything that came up. that was kind of my opinions and my descriptions of growing up with them. I kind of thought between the two of them, they can take care just about anything.
I: Yeah you had a problem solver you had a problem solving committee that you could go to a select. Now you said you lived on in Carbondale do you remember what the street address was so the house you lived in?
BF: 1129 Belvedere Drive.
I: Okay.
BF: Phone number was Garfield 72218
I: Go ahead and let’s put it in there.
BF: It’s still same as it was now.
I: You maintained your childhood number all those years.
BF: My mama maintained. When I moved in the house I mean I just made sure we kept that number.
I: That stability and retaining your history which you have the excellent skills to do doing the work that you're doing you know how to keep stuff attached. Go Bruce! Now you mentioned your sister and that was one of my questions. Let’s name your sister lets talk about what she was like/
BF: Charlene Lois Fisher and when she got married, she became Factory.
I: Okay.
BF: She was named after my mom she got my mom's middle name. When she was, my sister was adopted into the family long before I was. I mean i wouldn't even thought about it, I didn't even know they couldn’t have kids. Charlene was there before I was. So she feels in all the blanks that I don't know about you know about about family.
I: How many years is it different between you and your sister?
BF: She won't tell me exactly, probably by seven.
I: About 7? Do you have any other brothers and sisters?
BF: Yes, I've got a brother named Bernard. This is my my father's son Bernhard who is he was before mama and he got married so he was much older then I am.
I: Okay.
BF: So, I only met him once or twice.
I: OK well your sister that you do know who was she like?
BF: She was big sister I mean she was she was the next problem solver I mean if I ran into difficulties with that needed some immediate physical attention I know I can count on her to take care of that so she was when I was in elementary school she was going to Douglass that time we lived in Carverdale. So she took care of all of the problems at the neighborhood problems and stuff like that if I wanted to chance to go to Douglas to a socially or something then I could just bug Mom and them that I want to go and she would have to drag me along with me, to go to the Douglas games she had to drag me along with it and then she had to get me preoccupied with something else why she could go real boyfriend and do it so it was a..
I: You knew how to work it, you worked it Bruce?
BF: I had a reputation of being her little bad brother, so you know, all of her friends knew me.
I: As her bad little brother?
BF: Yeah, 'cause I'm gonna be somewhere close back or she was my ticket to get to do stuff you know stuff I wouldn’t normally get to. Go to the skating rink and go to like a social Douglas was having, go to South ball games or anything like that she was ticket to get to go.
I: And you had the reputation of being her bad little brother. Now Bruce did you earned that, would you say you earned that reputation?
BF: I did never see it.
I: You couldn't see it but that was what they were saying about you.
BF: I just knew because every time we come around some of her friends that’s what they said.
I: Okay, okay that’s what they said. Okay, now you talked about going to Edwards. Where else did you go to school in your young life?
BF: I went to Chickasha, went to Lincoln Chickasha, Edwards Elementary School in Oklahoma City and Northeast Northeast in Oklahoma City.
I: Did you go to a middle school?
BF: When I started Northeast, it was 7 through 12.
I: Okay.
BF: And by the time the implemented the finger plan in Oklahoma City and started forced bussing I was already in high school so when Northeastern Harding became in the same school area Harding became the Junior high, Northeast became the Senior High and I was already in Senior High so I didn't have to transfer out to go to another school. So I was a few people that at this stage in Oklahoma yeah educational history and I went from 7 to 12 Northeast.
I: Right so you were you missed that whole unique bad self middle school. How blessed...
BF: All the other kids were going to Moon and... from east side in Oklahoma City, northeast Oklahoma City, it was just east side, not northeast…
I: Right it was just.
BF: Very few lived with N 23rd street at the time they were going to Moon I didn't go to Moon 'cause I was at Northeast so, in fact I was at Northeast two years before the Robert Dowell (unintelligable)
I: You need to say that again and make sure that you speak a little louder it was significant you were already over there
BF: I wasn't by myself, there was some other black folks at northeast prior to the dial case worst case but see if the premise of Dowell was that um Robert lived in Forest Park and he wanted to go to North East but he didn't Oklahoma City set up residential boundaries for neighborhood schools that prohibited Brown versus the Board of Education having any impact on education on integrating schools in Oklahoma because if you didn't live within the residential boundaries of the school then basically Brown didn't have any impact on it and but when my parents moved into the northeast (?) park Estates area in 1962 then I live within the residential boundaries and I mean there's a whole other issue about getting a house.
I: I know it.
BF: In white neighborhoods in Oklahoma City at that time but we managed to get that done so I live in there so I was one of the very few black folks who were actually had northeast already by the time the dial case was filed And he lived in Forest Park so he was literally trying to get a transfer into northeast well I didn't have that problem was that lived in residential area being some other match was lived in here so we were headed northeast so when when the suit finally ended up in the finger busing plan then I was already at Northeast in high school so I didn't have to and I did used to get my mom to take me over to my cousins lived, so I can ride the bus back to northeast 'cause everybody else is riding the bus so I wanted to ride the bus too going away to Langston should take me out to the 50th and which was their 50th and Eastern we catch the bus so I can come back pass by my house to go back Northeast.
I: You had to have that experience
BF: Everybody else were riding the bus, I had to ride bus too.
I: That’s excellent. That is excellent. So you made sure you got your social dues in there.
BF: And I never said that again take me home take me out to my cousin also mom and grandma picked me up bring me back home.
I: So you got that experience.
BF: Yeah which is quite different. When I first started Northeast 7th and 8th grade when I was riding my bike to school I mean he wasn't usable for me to get run off the road on my way home from school and get rocks thrown at me and you know we got to the bricks through the picture window and everything 'cause it was very we were the first we would actually the second African American family to move out on Spring Lake drive at that time and we heard was the first William Kirk used to be the director OYCO in Oklahoma but I see it opens at one time they way we moved into the same summer as a matter of fact
I: Was William Kirk same as Wesley Kirk?
BF: Yeah Wesley Kirk. He had a son named William, but Wesley Kirk year and uh so about the same time we moved.I think was in the same summer, they moved and we moved too. And kid next door man named William named Richard Pierce. I’ll always remember Richard. Richard was really and he was my age we were the same class, some of the same classes together. His dad worked in oil field and boy he was not inclined to want to go along with his integration things so when Richard couldn't play with me when his dad was home but his dad spent a lot of time in the oil fields and so Richard would be be at my house playing something and his momma come out the back door Richard your dad is home and Richland would have to jump over that fence, but RIchard and I would be running around you know we've been best friends and and frequently again walking you know that the shopping center on the corner 36th and Kelley you know lots of dinner when we first moved out there all of those spaces were with viable businesses, many of them have signs on the door saying whites only and those kind of things.
I: When you moved over there?
BF: Yeah, so I knew which stores I could go into and which I couldn't go into and so that's kind of the environment that I was living at the time and Richard he and I were the best of friends so a lot of times we'd be out walking around and and a carload of teenagers, white teenagers would stop and start chasing me and I take off running and I look up there is Richard right with me, and I’d say what you running for and he said they don't like me either. So he and I you know would have to run together.
I: Was he white?
BF: Yeah.
I: And he's running too?
BF: Yeah. He would have too.
I: Had to, he made the wrong friend.
BF: Yup that’s what happened. And then his mom when his dad was out of town she would load us all in the car and we would go to swimming pool together and that kind of stuff, but when the the dad was home none of that stuff happened and then of course when we moved out there were also was before they integrated Spring Lake park too so even though I live right down the street from this major amusement park I couldn't go to it the first the first year about we lived there but once it started to integrated then heck, all of my friends from Carverdale they love to come spend the night with me that's right.
I: That’s right.
I: Oh yeah you know a Spring Lake park was just like a very awesome type of memory what do you remember by Spring Lake park?
BF: I mean I remember the you know again I mean it's just like gosh I mean that was that was.
I: That was walking distance.
BF: You know actually I grew up you know traveling you know my parents would always take us to Disneyland in this kind of thing so I knew what the major amusement parks was. Anything from the County Fair in Chickasha to to Disneyland you know I have some exposure to world's fair I mean gone to those things too so so Spring Lake park was really neat place for me so I like being able to take my friends down there would ever come to visit but I do remember the some of the the riots that occurred in Spring Lake park there pulling the attempts to integrate it and those kind of things so it was it was Wedgewood was a another big amusement park in Oklahoma City.
I: I remember Wedgewood.
BF: It was a fun place to be able to go to.
I: Bruce you have memories of your grandparents and you were brought up and living partially with your grandparents until you were in your elementary years. Now you want to name your grandparents that you knew and the ones that you live with?
BF: My mom side my my grandparents were Martha, my grandmother's name was Martha Bell. Her maiden name was Bell. She married my grandfather my mom's dad whose name was Sipual. TB Sipual. His name was Travis Bruce Sipual, he was the bishop of the Church of God in Christ in Oklahoma at the time that my mom and in the forties is when my mom filed that lawsuit which was he was only Bishop in the Church of God in Christ at that time the whole state was under his jurisdiction so that's true. My grandparents my mom by the time he died within six months after my mom filed that lawsuit and so in the summer of 1946 long before I was born he died. My grandmother later married another minister named Caver, so during my lifetime my grandmother was married to a man named caver and that was a grandparent that I knew going up on my mother side. On my dad side his name Travis Fisher. My father's father so they were Travis is on both side of my both my grandparents were named Travis which is how I ended up being Bruce Travis Fisher, my grandfather on my mom side was Travis Bruce and on my father's side was Travis Fisher and so that was my grandparents. My grandfather my dad side had remarried his my mom my dad's mother was married to that Lady name his mom's name
was Liddy Fisher, I don't forget it I don't know what her maiden name was, she was part Cherokee and and so she died soon after my dad was born. He was born in a cotton Patch area down near Frederick Oklahoma in that part of the state and my grandparents. My grandfather on my dad side had remarried to the lady name Rose Fisher was and forget what her maiden name was but but I grew up with my grandparents on my father side being my grandfather, Travis Fisher and his wife who we referred to as Mama Rosey. My grandfather was born on my dad's side he was born in 1880s and on my mom's side he was born in 1877 so both of my grandparents, their parents were certainly born in slavery so we were just not them it is just not that far removed from slavery. In other words both my grandparents were born shortly after the end of slavery and both were big my grandfather on my dad side was a moderator he was a moderator for the in the Baptist church for the Chickasaw district and you know they divided into Baptist seriously divided things have been districts in his was the Chickasaw districts. In fact I was just at a funeral another day in and out in Ardmore and the guy who was a moderator, one of my cousins and the guy who is presently the moderator are like never seen before it was up there talking and said that you know that he had just discovered that my cousin, who they were eulogising told him there were two ministers in her family and one of them was was moderator Fisher and he talked about how how wonderful it was that you know he had a chance to meet her and learn about that he didn't know about that so both of them were big time ministers on both sides.
I: That is well Bruce that is a fascinating history.
BF: Your mother told me that...
BF: Everybody, my mom's sister married administer and who my uncle, he was minister and as far as I can remember everybody was always married by, well you know, some member of our family right now family that was married by anybody but a minister in our family, all went to church. The last church did before the church not presently that I go to now my uncle my cousin CD Fisher passed and when he died, mom dad 95 I think he died in 97 or 98, after he died then I didn't go back to church for a long time 'cause I couldn't figure out who's church to go to 'cause we didn't have any more relatives it was preachers and I had always gone to relatives church all my life, so I decided what happened was when I got ready to get married soon I got married we had two ministers, my uncle cause we had to have a family minister and then and then she her family you know the woman is probably put together wedding, she had wanted Reverend Parker who was a minister so we had two ministers to marry us at that time so when I finally decided that I was going to have to finally go to a church that was not a family member then I decided to go back to Reverend Parker’s church so he married us 26 years or 27 years ago.
I: Are you, where are you in church?
BF: Reverend Parker's Church. Saint James.
I: Saint James. Loving Saint James. I went to school with his daughter Marvel. Now do you remember how far back and you got on your family tree you got both of your grandparents do you set do you go back any further and memory?
BF: I don’t know, daddy was doing a tree at the back of the house, I've gotta find it at the house yet again with all of the issues surrounding the the issues in the Freedman litigations in Oklahoma I have never even had time to even look at any genealogy in our family. I do know that my, my grandmother Martha Bell was the daughter of a plantation owner in Arkansas cabin, cabin Bellamy this on my mom's book she traced back that far so my grandmother was when was when her mom was born on the plantation in Arkansas area where you know, it's funny when people look at I keep it on my desk in my grandmother with her brothers and sisters and it looks just looks like a white family.
I: Really.
BF: Yeah and and I mean you know until I started working at history center I started working on all of this I mean I've been paid it big Mama attention she was always as big mama. Again those stories that you hear that don't really make a lot of sense of the time mommy stick with me telling telling the story about when when my grandmother did Mama was in the hospital one time she said Mama said she would visit her and of course again you know up until the late 50s Blacks couldn't go to because of segregation laws in Oklahoma was against the law to be in hospitals with white folks anyway so but my grandmother would be in hot mountain by going to visit my grandmother hospital and when she left the lady next to my grandmother said all it was made in nicely to be so friendly to the little colored girl and my grandmother would say yes, it was it.
I: Well.
BF: And then the time, you know I had heard so many stories about my grandmother getting, having problems with things like riding on the train so forth because in Oklahoma segregation laws were such that whites could not ride in the colored section and colors couldn't ride in the white section so what is my grandmother to do I mean they thought that she was she had is black kids with her so we wouldn't get just created problems but she by laws of Oklahoma with the constitution read in Oklahoma one drop of black blood meant that you were black.
I: That’s right.
BF: That's why I said we didn't make any difference in how she could play how white she looked the fact that she you know was undeniably she certainly didn't claim anything we asked but being black, but it did create problems her brother she had a brother that was passing for white in Arkansas and so she would never go and visit because he would always want her to leave leave the kids behind so she wouldn't do that it.
I: You know.
BF: I heard he became Lieutenant governor of Arkansas.
I: Really? He became?
BF: Yeah.
I: Well you know many of our.
BF: They may have had a black lintenuetiant governor they don’t know about.
I: Right, we had to do what he had to do in situations like that.
BF: Let me straighten it out for the record. In reality the captain Bell had two families on his plantation, he had a white family and he had a black family in which my grandmother was the offspring of the black family. She was one 1/16 or 1/32nd of second black and that was the family my grandmother sprang from and the brother that became the lieutenant governor was from the white family but they were still brothers.
I: But they were still brothers and sisters. Okay, let’s talk about your marriage. Let’s talk about your marriage. You got married at what year and who did you marry?
BF: I married Sharon McCloud, 27 years ago. I don’t know whatever that was I don’t remember.
I: 27 years ago? That’s admirable.
BF: Her dad was Moses McCloud and of Irish descent, actually. Which momma she couldn't wear alfro and she liked buying those afro wigs, and her dad was of irish descent and he couldn’t wear alfro either he said he was so straight, but he was from Boley and her mother was Gladis Burks. Her maiden name was Burke and she was from Clearview, so both of my wife's family are from historically black towns in Oklahoma.
I: That’s going to be an interesting interview. Now you are a father, you know I just happened to know that wasn’t really a question. Let’s talk about your children, let’t talk about your children and their names.
BF: My oldest is my daughter Adanma, it’s A, D, A, N as in Nancy, M as in Mary, A as in Apple. Adanma. Sipuel is a middle name, Fishers is her maiden name and she's married to Peyton Ford so she is now Ford. She was born May 31st, 1982.
I: Oklahoma City?
BF: No, she was born in Edina, Minnesota. Edina is a suburb right outside of Minneapolis. My son is Emake, E,M,A,K,E McCloud Fisher and he was born on August 31st, 1986, so he just turned 21. Their names are African Igbo. Their first names are both from the Igbo tribe in Nigeria. My daughter's name A, D, A in Igbo pronounces ‘Aida’, it looks like ‘Ada’ but it pronounces ‘Aida’ in Igbo. And in Igbo Ada means first daughter and I'm serious by coincidence that my mom's name was Ada and she just happened to be the first daughter in their family, but we took advantage of the opportunity and naming my daughter Adanma which in Igbu it means beautiful first daughter. My son's name in Igbo means gift from God or God’s gift. And they both have African Igbo names. I made the, I had the opportunity to go to Africa right after I graduated from Langston in 1973 and it had such a significant impact on me. And I always had this affinity for Africa even in college. I mean when everybody else is trying to run to Europe with the exchange programs, I didn't want to go.
I: That’s how I remember you.
BF: And I waited until opportunity to present me to go to Africa and I got a Fulbright Hays scholarship and it enabled me to go to Africa and so it made a big impression on me and so I wanted to get my name my kids real names rather than Tanishia, Kenishia, names sounded African. I wanted them to actually be African because the Igbo was a fantastic tribe, business tribe in Nigeria.
I: In Nigeria. That is all about the time I actually got to meet you after you had traveled in Africa and I had to follow my girlfriend over to your house and see your African souvenirs. I bought something from you. Why don't you talk about that trip to Africa and I'm going to let you tell him what you want us to know about the trip in your own words.
BF: Well, I made 2 trips to Africa. First one was on the summer of 73 which was a Fulbright Hays scholarship that had to African Americans from all over the country and that participated in the summer programs and studying at the University of Ghana and University of Nigerian sponsored by the state Department and it was our towards Masters degrees if we were chosen to do that and then in 1985 I guess it was I had a chance to go back on a business venture to try and begin an import and export type business opportunity where I bought a container load of African artifacts and shipped it back here for sale. My first experience in Africa was again you know life changing because you know it's fascinating to see this whole continent of when I reported what I saw of people from which we are our heritage you know our originates
I: That’s true.
BF: And see the connection and more importantly, I think I just as important was I saw what a tremendous opportunity that we have here to develop trade relationships with people from Africa. You know my best friend in college, one of my best friends in college was from Sierra Leone and I had you know a deep, deep friendship with him. So I just always wanted to build on that connection and so you know I knew then that that culture in Africa was so rich with with values and things that should be shared with between the two cultures here in America and in Africa and I was wanted to capitalize on it both from the financial standpoint and from an educational living standpoint. And so I had a chance to go back and try to buy African art and learn about African art, little did I know that in the process of doing that, that it would qualify me to eventually work in the museum environment, because of my experience in dealing with with with the artifacts that I came in contact with his result venture gave me the qualifications I needed to make an introduction into the museum world here. My goal in life now is to go to Africa at some point when I live here and build a huge museum on the coast of Africa. Dedicated to telling the African American experience day that don't have the vast majority of people from Africa have no idea what happened to these black folks had left that came to America. So what I want to do is to take our experiences here over to there in the same way that we... very few museums are doing any justice to showing what Africa is like over here I mean they pick the more obscure the more you know very stereotypical type of interpretations that they want to project about Africa, but we don't have any real museum interpretation in America, that really shows what life is like for Africans today by the time we see it. It's been it's it's it's it's through the eyes of people who looking for certain images or looking at certain crisis a certain issues and and uh so I kinda wanna do do something over there that gives them a chance to see they they know about Martin Luther King they've heard about the
struggles with some of the issues we've had here in America to deal with but much in the way that i did the museum here yes I want to give them a taste of what life is like you know for the average person for everyday people here in America that they may not have heard about beyond Malcolm X and Martin Luther King in Jackie Robinson and some of those and Rosa Parks and some of those issues
I: That’s awesome. well as we have about 10 minutes and we want to be able to allow you and your own way to talk about any subjects of importance to you and that 10 minutes as we round out your interview I have one question I would like for you to answer because the main reason I wanted to interview you it’s because my research that I'm currently working on is to strengthen black families and marriages and to help people to overcome trauma and for a young person hearing this tape what kinds of ideas do you have a to help them to deal with you know just the problems of everyday life what are some of the things that you think what might be beneficial as they try to to learn some of the problems of life you know it you win some you lose some and life is hard you've accomplished a great deal and your parents accomplished a great deal I admire you 'cause you kept your family together and your parents were able to keep your family together through some tremendous opposition and so I would like to in your own words give us you know some kind of a statement if you can think of something or if there's something that you think is really important in your last 10 minutes that you'd like to do I like for you to share it with us so that be satisfied with your own interview.
BF: The way things have worked out in the last 7, 8 years have been pretty interesting. When I started working after we finished mom's book ‘Matter black and white’ and after mom died and within the next couple of years I ended up working for the Oklahoma Centennial Commission as Oklahoma began to plan for its 100th birthday about Seven years ago. So I started with that with looking at what can what what is the Centennial and what is it all about and I realized as a result to that I did study of other centennials around the country. This was an opportunity for people to celebrate that first 100 years and before long I was working at the history center and they were getting ready to build this new museum and they asked me to make a team leader for the development of African Americans exhibit. And to do that I've had to talk with an awful lot of people about the African American experience in Oklahoma. This is Oklahoma's first permanent exhibit of the African American experience. And so it enabled me to to first of all figure out what is our history what is our story and uh and then to try to look for the artifacts and look for the documentation to be able to interpret our stories for the general public to see. I think that that what I have really learned is that so many young people today, so many people period, I mean don't know what is what my history really is. And without if every generation is starting from scratch then it has we have little we don't have much of a reservoir of to fall back on when we look at examples of success when we look at at reasons to try and overcome the obstacles that confront us in life we don't have much to look at it I mean we have to start over every time. So I think that it has been a huge disservice to our young people in particular not to know our history. Because without that history then they don't realize the sacrifices that other people went through to get them to where they are today. So working on this project has really enabled me to put together that story about when our history is here. From what used to be, used to be the perception that in Oklahoma we had one or two when you talk about black history you're talking about Clara Luper, Ada Lois Sipuel Fisher, Roscoe Dungee. What I try to do is to show people in that exhibit that we have many many many many heros as my mother said and sheros that have contributed to our story. I mean the first African American pilots to fly transcontinentally across the United States, James Herman Banning and Thomas Allen, both from Oklahoma. The first African American woman to serve on the Supreme Court of any state in the United States, she’s from Wewoka, Oklahoma. The first African American..
I: What’s her name?
BF: Juanita Kidd Stout, the first African American, she served on the Supreme Court in Pennsylvania. The first African American to have an office in the state Capitol building in in since reconstruction happened in Oklahoma, JW Sanford, doctor Sanford father, when he was a director several schools in Oklahoma. You know we've got all of these, all of these neat stories of people that have overcome so much and it contributed so much. I think when after Brown versus Board of Education people thought that integration was the key to solving all of our problems. And I think what we found out is that it was a solution but not the perfect solution, when they dissolved the Oklahoma Association of Negro Teachers which was the brain trust of the African American community teaching black kids, when that organization was was was designed because of browsers working and then I think we lost that capacity to be able to connect with young people and we lost the the mechanism by which they learn particularly African Americans learn about their past and who the heroes and sheroes. In other words nobody's talking about (?) Miller anymore you know nobody's talking about FD Moon anymore. Nobody's talking about Zelia Breaux nobody's talking about Zip Gales and nobody's even talking about EB Tulson you know anymore. So all of these people who were the role models in our community are not talked about anymore, so our kids don't know who those people, whose role models now whoevers on TV. So I think that really really has has been a great disservice to the African American kids. you know they now... I realize something this past year too that for the very first time in history of this state you know we get 50,000 kids a year who come through the new history center looking at history, we've always had thousands of kids to come to the museum to learn about Oklahoma history but now for the very first time in this day's history ever when they come to learn about what used to be white Oklahoma history they're learning also about black Oklahoma history that didn't happen before. In other words you had generations after generations after generations of people who with good intentions would bring their kids to the museum to learn about Oklahoma and not know anything about the contributions of black folks have made to the growth and development of state. Well that's all changed and now you get out of these kids when they come to the museum they're learning for the first first time that we're not invisible people as Ralph Ellison said. We have made, we have made huge contributions to the state in many many different many different ways. So if that's the thing that I think has been a missing ingredient, now we haven’t solve the problem yet.
I: I understand.
BF: But I think that we've got to figure out a way to ensure that our kids recognize that they do have a legacy. They do have shoulders to they are standing on. People have made great, great contributions to get them to where they are today, in all facets of life. And I think that will have have some impact other than that you know every generation is is just starting all over again.
I: That's true, that’s true. Bruce, I commend you for the work that you're doing at the center that's my love, so I'm gonna be working and I'll be available to you and I hope that if you see some area that you want me to support you in that you will let me know.
BF: Thank you for doing this. This is a big contribution.
I: This is... you know I'm gonna I'm gonna take the names and I'm going to follow through on anyone that you know that you think I should include in these interviews as long as I'm able to do it. So I am committed in that way and so I appreciate it
BF: Thank you!
I: Thank you, thank you! And I got to take a picture with you. Thank you yeah we gonna take a picture.