Description:
David Wilson talks about his life and his career in the restaurant business as owner of the Charcoal Oven.
Transcript:
Interviewee: David Wilson
Interviewer: Buddy Johnson
Interview Date: September 24th, 2007
Interview Location: Downtown Library, Oklahoma City
Transcribed on Saturday, June 23rd, 2012
Buddy Johnson: Today is September 24th, 2007. We’re in the Downtown library in Oklahoma City. As part of the Oklahoma Voices project, we’re speaking with David Wilson. My name is Buddy Johnson, and I am a librarian at Downtown. So David, tell us when and where you were born.
David Wilson: I was born in Peoria, Illinois in 1932. May 26th.
BJ: And how did your... Well, tell us who your parents were.
DW: I'm sorry?
BJ: Your parents. Who were your parents?
DW: Mr. and Mrs. J.H. Wilson
BJ: And how did they decide to come to Oklahoma?
DW: Dad was offered a job down here with Massachusetts Mutual Life Insurance Company. And nobody wanted to go. (We) heard the stories. But my Dad thought it was such an opportunity, which turned out it was. Very much so. And so we packed up and came down.
BJ: How old were you then?
DW: I was, I believe, six years old.
BJ: So, you were old enough to know what was going on.
DW: It was really '38.
BJ: So, you knew what was... You knew what it meant to be moving?
DW: Yeah. Yeah, I understood
BJ: Did you have brothers and sisters?
DW: Yeah, two. One older brother and one younger.
BJ: Did you... Let's see. I guess... Tell us where you lived when you came here?
DW: Well that's an interesting story. We were about the fifth house in Nichols Hills, because nobody lived there. And my dad wanted a large house. At least three of four bedrooms, which was large then, very large. And he could only afford so much, and we ended up in Nichols Hills because the house that he rented was reasonable enough where he could afford it. So, we lived way out of town, so to speak. But there were only about a dozen other houses in Nichols Hills at that time.
BJ: Then you said this was '38 or '9? Around in there?
DW: '38. When he... When we got here.
BJ: So, it was really rural, I guess.
DW: Oh, very much so. Western was a dirt road.
BJ: Seriously?
DW: So was 63rd.
BJ: Wow.
DW: May Avenue was a dirt road.
BJ: And I guess you had a car. Or how did you get around?
DW: Yeah. They had a car.
BJ: Did you go into the city much?
DW: Yeah.
BJ: Where did you go to school
DW: I went to Nichols Hills school. And most of the kids just walked to school. It was about a mile away. Yeah, we'd go into Oklahoma City all the time. We'd ride our bicycles. When I could get hold of a horse I would ride it. I always rode the horses. So....or the bus. We... And that was during the war, basically, when I was going to school. And we went to Harding Junior High. But they had semi-trailer trucks converted as a bus. And you'd get on that truck and it'd take you to school. Dump us out and pick us up.
BJ: Somehow, I don't think they would allow that today. Seemed a little unsafe.
DW: Well it wasn't as bad as you thought it was. That's what we had available. We didn't have fancy school busses.
BJ: So, how many kids were in Nichols Hills then if there were just a few houses.
DW: We're all still very close friends. And, in the sixth-grade class, I imagine there were, just thinking back, twenty. And we all still see each other quite often.
BJ: Do you remember...who were some of the people you were friends with?
DW: Henry Coffeen, Bill Wells, Dick Coyle. They were in class with us. Jimmy Harris. Dick Bailey. Danny Keller. Well, he was younger. He was in a grade below us. I think I named all the boys that I knew.
BJ: So, you... And that's amazing. You stayed close... Everyone stayed in town. Or, around at least.
DW: Yeah. We're all still very close friends. Well, we eat lunch every Wednesday.
BJ: Well that's pretty close.
DW: Along with others that we picked up along the way.
BJ: So, you went to Harding Junior. But, then where did you go to... did you stay there for high school?
DW: No, I went to old Classen. Which probably was one of the nicest things that ever happened to me. Because I really... I love the school... those kids. And we still see each other all the time.
BJ: And did your same group of friends went there too?
DW: Yes. Just about all of them went there.
BJ: What did you... When you were in high school, what did you think about doing with your life, then? This would have been, I guess, after the war, right?
DW: Well, no, this was during the war.
BJ: During the war.
DW: Yeah, Korean. When we were in high school. And... Well, at that time we were not faced with being drafted until our year after Classen. And then we had to sign up. Well, we had to sign up when we were eighteen, but we weren't threatened by it until the next year. And, but, all of us were drafted that were eligible. So, we got to finish college at OU. Most of us were OU. They let us finish if we promised to go serve as an officer if we got our commission in the ROTC as an officer and completed four years there with a degree then we could go in whatever military branch we chose as an officer and serve three years.
BJ: What did you do in... But what... Is that what you wanted to do? Do you remember what your... What your plans were? Or did you have plans? Like so many high school kids don't?
DW: Well, I studied geology in OU. Got my degree. But I very much wanted to fly in the Air Force. And I did. And that was kind of my dream. And I had a wonderful time.
BJ: So, you... You said you could choose any branch you want when you came out. So, you chose the Air Force?
DW: Well, when you start your ROTC.
BJ: So, you were in the AROTC.
DW: Yeah, the Air Force ROTC.
BJ: So, what did you... When... Then... When you... Well, let's... We'll get back to that... But in OU... at OU. What... What all did you, did you do? Is there anything interesting from that time that you could tell us?
DW: Just go to school. And get my degree. And... no. No challenging achievements, you might say. And I was a member of Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity, and again, many friends developed there. We're still very close friends.
BJ: When you went into the Air Force, what did you... you said you flew. What...
DW: I went into Air Force flight training. And I was a flight line rat and I flew every day.
BJ: What kind of things did you fly?
DW: We flew all of the props. The last of the props. AT-6s, B-25s, B-26 Convair. And I ended up as an instructor and check pilot. Many, many hours. I was tired after three years. I needed a rest.
BJ: What...So you got out then. This would be mid-'50s, then?
DW: I got out in '57.
BJ: Did you have a favorite among those planes? I'm kind of a plane buff. I'm just curious.
DW: Well, I bought an AT-6 after I got out. Did air shows. Flew it with the Confederate Air Force, which is now the Commemorative Air Force. The politically correct name. And did that for years. And it got to be a lot of work, so I decided to move on.
BJ: So, when you... when you left the Air Force then, you came back to Oklahoma City?
DW: Um-hmm.
BJ: What did you... Did you plan to go into geology then?
DW: I did. And I was offered a job for $350 dollars a month to go to Saudi Arabia. And my wife and I, we already had children in the Air Force, and my wife went through the whole thing with me, and... and she wanted to get out of the Air Force and I did too. So, we did and then we were coming back to school and there wasn't much future going in as far as a master's degree, and there wasn't much future as far as a job. And, with a family, well, you've got to go to work. So, real things being real, we had a friend that had a restaurant in Kansas, and he told me I ought to do what he's doing. And it'd feed the family. So that's how we started the restaurant business, and that's when we built the Charcoal Oven in 1958 out on Northwest Expressway in Oklahoma City.
BJ: Well, tell us real quick your wife's name, and where... how did you meet her?
DW: Carolyn Peak. She was at Classen. And her family were in the theater business. And they installed all the old-style theaters. Oklahoma Theater Supply.
BJ: Is her... Was her father Eldon Peak?
DW: That's her father.
BJ: Oh, I know about him!
DW: Yeah, Eldon Peak.
BJ: He was quite a... early...
DW: Very good in electronics.
BJ: Yeah. Electronic kinda wiz.
DW: And Maxine ran the bookwork and he did the selling and they did very well. And in fact, they rode it to where they just didn't have any more customers because they all went to the new equipment. But he installed many of the drive-ins. And he is the one, really, that directed me into the restaurant business. He said, "This is what you ought to do." I didn't... I didn't really know what I wanted to do when I got out of the Air Force, but I knew I had to do something fast. So, his friend was the one who was in the restaurant business. I went up there to look at it. And we started scratching the dirt about three months later. And built that little Dairy Queen-type building, and it's still there and still going.
BJ: What... What made you decide to go with that... with a drive-in type restaurant?
DW: Because it's easy to keep up with. Not a big menu. And... It's... You don't have people inside. When customers come inside a building to be served, it's much more expensive, much more overhead to take care of. And this was a drive-through thing, which... really, this drive-through Buddy, developed because of the drive-in movies, so people could pick up their food and go on into the movie. And so that's where the concept came from.
BJ: That's where you got the inspiration to... People were already doing this.
DW: Well, my friend... my father-in-law's friend, and my friend. He was a manager, a theater manager, in Kansas. And he said, "I'm making more money out of my little food stand than I am managing eighteen theaters." And he said, " I'm going to quit the theater thing," and he said, "You ought to get into this." So, he showed me what to do scratched out on a piece of paper, and I came home and that was enough for me. I'll just do it and see what happens. So, I was going to do that, and then I was going to fly for Braniff Airlines. I had already worked that out and had a job with them. And I was going to fly and take care of this on the side. Well, being what it was, that just can't be. You've got to watch your store if you want it to run. And somebody has to run it and I'm the only one to run it. So, that's where I ended up and it's been a good thing ever since.
BJ: That was... '58 was a transition time for the airlines anyway. You would have had to switch to j...
DW: Well, transition for everybody really.
BJ: Well, right, yeah. I just mean they went from like, Tristars or whatever those tri... Constellations or whatever, to jets.
DW: Yeah, we went... Well, the reciprocating engines went out and jet engines came in.
BJ: So, you probably would have been doing a lot of training anyways.
DW: Yeah, and... Yeah, it turned over pretty fast. You bet. And, of course, with the airline industry that's just a revolution the way that thing went about.
BJ: That's like a... almost a societal change.
DW: Well, the airspeed saved... You take 250 miles an hour and go to 500. Makes a lot of difference.
BJ: It shrinks the size of the country.
DW: Oh yeah.
BJ: So, why did you pick Northwest Highway and, I guess we'll just say May
DW: Well, they were building Penn Square. And we knew we wanted to get as close to that, reasonably, as we could. In fact, Northwest Highway at that time had just been completed. It was really a no-man's-land. Rarely traffic used it. And we could buy the property cheap there and I bought it with an option to buy and that worked out very well. We bought it immediately.
BJ: So, you owned the land and everything.
DW: Oh yeah.
BJ: Was Northwest Highway still... I think. Wasn't there a time when... Well, we didn't have I-44, and Classen, and east of Classen circle, I guess. Was there still Classen circle then? Isn't that the name?
DW: Classen... Yeah, it's been there a long, long time but it's just kind of a crossroads. That's the old Belle Isle streetcar track.
BJ: I thought it was the main hi... Like 66 ran through or something.
DW: It did.
BJ: Wasn't there a... I didn't know if that was part of the heavy traffic.
DW: It was changed all the time - the route of it though town. 66 was really down on 39th Street.
BJ: So, this wasn't like a high traffic...?
DW: Yeah, there was a lot of traffic there. Yeah.
BJ: Where... How far out were houses by then along that Northwest...?
DW: They were right to the end of Classen.
BJ: So, you were almost out of town. You were on the edge of town.
DW: Right. We were on the edge of town.
BJ: It's so central now.
DW: Yeah, and the Baptist Hospital had just been built. It was probably completed a year or so before. I think they had their problems getting people out there because it was out of town.
BJ: Was all else was out there besides... What I remember... I didn't move here until the mid-'70s. But there was Russell Stover's and stuff like that. But... What... There was nothing... You were pretty much it.
DW: Oh I was it. The only thing on Northwest Highway was the Northwest Highway drive-in theater which is about where Founders Tower is. And then there was Highland Park where we used to swim. I think they called it Lake Stella. Up there behind Baptist. We'd swim as kids there with the...
BJ: Oh, I know... That's a... There's an apartment around it now.
DW: ...all the snakes and the turtles. You get on the long slide and when you got down the slide why the seat of your bathing suit was gone. And... That... It was an old sand pit I think is what that was. And other than that, there wasn't until that amusement park...
BJ: Wedgewood?
DW: ...Wedgewood was built out there. Then it developed pretty fast.
BJ: Well... So how much traffic did you get the day you opened up?
DW: Oh, I don't know, Buddy. Probably not very much.
BJ: Enough to keep the doors open, but not much more than that?
DW: Yeah.
BJ: Who were your... Those first few years, who were your clientele?
DW: A lot of them I just knew by sight, you know. I didn't even know their names. But we still have one that came in the first week or so we were open. He still comes in in his, about a '60 Oldsmobile. And they've all passed on. And, you just... you see the same people. A lot of the same people.
BJ: Was there a particular demographic or anything? Income level? Or just, types of people?
DW: Oh, just northwest Oklahoma City. Nichols Hills.
BJ: And, you'd mentioned that you'd gotten the inspiration for the... having the drive-in because of the movies and things like that. And... but the thing is that, in my opinion at least, your drive-in is still a little bit different orientation or layout than most drive-ins with car hops and things like that. So, how did that...
DW: Right. Well it all changed.
BJ: Or, was it always that way? Did it start out that way?
DW: No. Ours was just laid out like we thought, you know. With no regard to the use of the land. And there's a lot of ill-use of that land, and of course we just made it a yard. But if it was done today, they would have the building up on the front and have the drive-through around behind it and be inside seating. But Sonic doesn't go inside seating because it's such a hassle.
BJ: Well, you have to have wait staff, cleaning, and all that. Health regulations and...
DW: Right. And it's a lot more overhead. The outside service is much easier to handle, and much more profitable.
BJ: I guess, for the record, maybe you could tell future generations how it... how... What's the directions for coming to the Charcoal Oven. How does it work when you pull... You pull off Northwest Highway.
DW: Yeah, you just pull in and stop where the little speaker is and you read the menu, give the order, and... There's always the problem between the order-taker and the order-giver. If you can get that to work, why, you're in pretty good shape. And most people are very nice. Ninety-nine percent of them just are... go right down the line. And... Our deal... We don't fix the food. We may be cooking some when you come in, but we don't cook it up ahead and let it sit. That's our... That's the key to our business is we do not cook your hamburger and let it sit. It's moving. All the time it's moving.
BJ: And it comes in to you where you... where you... you come... you order then you drive to the restaurant part... to the window. And then you have the option to just leave, or you can park off to the side.
DW: You can park off to the side, then we have a patio. Two patios out there you can eat at. If the wind's not blowing too hard.
BJ: And always a very pretty garden out in the lawn.
DW: We try to keep it nice. We sure do.
BJ: What kind of things were on the original menu?
DW: Just hamburger, cheeseburger, and frankfurter, and chili and cheese - you could put that on. Now we've added mushrooms and green chilies and everything else that you can add. Bacon...
BJ: When did the Chicka-doodle-doo come along?
DW: Chicka-doodle-doo was from the Masters Golf tournament. That was Chick-fil-A. And we were enamored by the Chick-fil-A. It was sold out of a little wagon at the Masters tournament. And we thought, "Well, we're going to do something like this." So that's how Chicka-doodle-doo came up. We had to have a different name.
BJ: When was this?
DW: That was in the '60s. Early '60s. And it's always been a good seller.
BJ: It's my wife's favorite.
DW: It's a fried chicken sandwich.
BJ: My wife get's that every time.
DW: The key to it is just cook it when it's ordered. Don't cook it ahead of time.
BJ: Did you have a pretty experienced staff when you started?
DW: No. No, that was part of the problem. I got friends. One of my friends. He’ll still talk. He laughs when we see each other. Says, "I may need a job. Keep it open for me." He came over and cooked. And, oh, just people I knew. I got together a little group and they did real good. Eventually I hired enough people.
BJ: I also was curious before we... since we're... before we move away from the early days. How...where did you get the stake for your... to start?
DW: Oh, for the burgers?
BJ: Well, I didn't... I'm sorry. I meant...
DW: The ground beef?
BJ: No, I mean the s-t-a-k-e. The money to start your... Because you'd been in the Air Force and... I shouldn't do that.
DW: Oh! Well, surprisingly enough when I departed the Air Force I went overseas quite often, on these flights. And I'd only be gone two or three days, and they called it 'per diem.' It had built up quite a bit, so when I got out, they handed me about fifteen thousand dollars. Which I just was bowled over. So, I had a little bit then, and I rented the land when we... with a... the right to purchase. And then I... the family helped a little bit and we put ours in. My wife can tell all the details.
BJ: That's okay, I just wondered if you...
DW: She got mad one time. The last four hundred dollars I had I went out and bought a set of tires before I went into the Air Force and she said, "How could you do it?"
BJ: That's a lot for tires. It's a lot now. Well, in the... I wouldn't ask...
DW: Maybe it's two hundred dollars. I don't... I forget.
BJ: With inflation. Well, I wanted to also ask you about the sign that's there now. It's kind of an Oklahoma City landmark still. Is it... was that the original sign? Or, How long...
DW: No, we had one before, and it... I believe it was damaged in a storm is how it all came about. So... I had a fellow that I knew, Danny Thompson, and he worked for Superior Signs down there. And he looked at it and he said, "You ought to let me fix that up and then we could make it a lot bigger." So I did. And... So that's the one that's been there. It's been there since the '60s. Which is not legal now.
BJ: Oh, it's not?
DW: They will not allow you to put up a sign like that now, no.
BJ: Is it too close to the road, or just the shape and the size?
DW: No, it's too big. Too big.
BJ: Too big? Uh-huh. And, I should disclose for future generations too that my wife is... you've known my wife her whole life.
DW: Yes.
BJ: So, she's a friend of the family. And she always swears that that's you, on that sign. Is that you?
DW: Oh, well, a lot of people ask.
BJ: It does kind of look like you. But it's not... You weren't the model for it?
DW: No, I wasn't the model. Although, when we were building the store, I went down on Grand, here, and there was a little artist's shop, that did decals and things. And I went in there and asked him. And I drew out something. "You got the idea?" And, "Yeah, yeah, I'll do it for you." And I think I paid him eight dollars to make that logo, and we've always used it. People say, "Is that you?" So maybe he modeled it after me.
BJ: Yeah, he might have. That's true.
DW: I didn't have much of a stomach, then. I was skin and bones.
BJ: Well, it's a good likeness of you. Did you... I know you had other stores, restaurants, whatever you want to call them, later. When did you start to expand? Or, did you... Let me ask you first - did you have a master plan, or was it always just going to be the one, originally.
DW: No, the idea was just to make money. And, the family... I had to pay the bills. So, I had to be careful what I did. But just to make income, because we had three kids. Anyway, I didn't want to go to work for anybody, and I really wanted to be my own boss, so to speak. So, you had to be very careful what you did. And then I built Quick's Hamburgers in '62. And that was down on Classen, and that was a free-for-all. Then we built another Quick's up on 59th and May Avenue.
BJ: 59th and May, okay.
DW: That's where KFC is. We sold the property. Sold out on the lease to... It was leased to Long John Silver's and then Long John Silver's bought the lease out.
BJ: There's the light right there.
DW: Yeah, right.
BJ: And that was a Quick's also?
DW: Yeah.
BJ: What was the difference between Charcoal Oven and Quick's?
DW: Quick's was sort of a McDonalds... McDonaldish type deal.
BJ: Fast food?
DW: Ours was nineteen cents. What started out.
BJ: Were there any hooks or catches with that. I mean, what was your gimmick? Just the price?
DW: Just the price. That was the lead-on.
BJ: What kind of a... The 59th location and the Classen location are pretty different visibly. What was the...
DW: Well, hyperbolic paraboloid. It was torn down up there on 59th.
BJ: Oh, was that a similar building?
DW: Yes, they were similar.
BJ: Oh, you know what? I remember that... when it was Long John Silver's. They kind of made it look like a ship, didn't they?
DW: Yes.
BJ: Oh, I never knew that was originally a hyperbolic parabola. 'Cause now it's just your standard KFC building. So who did you have build that? Did you have an architect design that for you or was it kind of the stock design?
DW: Yeah, well it more or less was the same thing that Jack Scott did on... he was the architect on the one down there on 32nd and Classen. And the one up there on 59th and May, I can't remember who it was.
BJ: But they were basically the same... It's that swoop... Basically you take a square and..
DW: Yeah, hyperbolic paraboloid.
BJ: Was there any reason you chose that design? Or was it just modern, or...
DW: Oh, just to be different. And, you know, try to attract people.
BJ: When you said the one on Classen was a free-for-all, what was that like?
DW: We just had so much business, it just was... We couldn't handle it.
BJ: What was Classen like, then? It's now just a... basically a pretty, fairly quiet traffic way. I mean, was it still like that then?
DW: Right. Pretty much. It's always been that way. I don't think... Well, it probably carries the same amount of traffic. It's much nicer now than it used to be.
BJ: How did you deal with, like, your competition? Did you ever try to be competitive among other restaurants in town, or did you kind of just stick to your game?
DW: Well, our thinking is to have a different niche than the others and not try to really compete with them penny for penny. That is not good in the restaurant business. I mean, that's the wrong road to go down - to try and be better by price. We always... I always felt to be better by quality. We always bought the very best ingredients - still do - as we can buy. Our ground beef is $2.10 a pound, and in the grocery store I doubt there's anybody who buys it for that price. Very few.
BJ: Do you have a particular supplier? I mean, do you look for fine... finer... not frozen, I guess.
DW: No, we use fresh beef every day. We get a delivery every day. Except Sunday. And Oklahoma City Meat is one of the few that can do it now because it's so closely watched by the Agricultural Department. Health Department.
BJ: The other thing about Charcoal Oven real quick is the Suzie-Q fries, of course. Why did you decide to go that route? Did you always have those always like that?
DW: Well, we copied that from the old Dolores. We used to own the old Dolores. When they sold it, we operated that for about eight or nine years. And that was their trade name for their fries. Their little curly fries. Suzie-Qs.
BJ: That was kind of a landmark restaurant too for a while. I don't know when it started, but... '30s or '40s, I guess. Did you grow up eating in that restaurant?
DW: Yes. No, it started in 1929.
BJ: '29, even? Okay.
DW: Had carhops. And, they just had wonderful food. We just could not hire the kind of people that that restaurant needed to keep going.
BJ: Because again this is a sit-down... They had indoor...
DW: Sit-down. Everything was made from scratch. And it was very hard to control. When they had urban renewal across the street south on 23rd, south of that, there were just many empty buildings and a lot of characters moved in and mugged the customers. The employees quit coming before the customers did.
BJ: Well, right. Is this on Lincoln, or where was 23rd?
DW: This was on 23rd, right off Broadway.
BJ: Off Broadway, okay. See, I'd never seen...
DW: Just a block east, on 23rd.
BJ: That's under the... Was it torn down from...
DW: Yeah, it's a Sonic there now.
BJ: Sonic there now. Okay.
DW: But we just had it leased from the Stevens family.
BJ: But the best benefit was you got the rights to the recipes and the...
DW: We still own the rights, yes.
BJ: Because I noticed on the menu there's the Old Dolores Burger now.
DW: Yeah, we had people say, "Why don't you put in a Dolores?" And I'd say, "Well, it's just... You can't run it in today's world like that was." And I said, "I'll sell you the rights and the recipes." I haven't had any takers yet.
BJ: Well, I noticed on the menu that you can get an Old Dolores Burger with comeback sauce. What's comeback sauce?
DW: That is the sauce that Mrs. Stevens made up. And it's very similar to a spaghetti sauce. It's a kind of an Italian-type sauce. Spaghetti sauce. But it just is real good on a grease-grilled hamburger. It's not as good on a flame-broiled hamburger. But it's still very good. And people, you know, they talked about it and asked for it, so we put it on. We don't sell a lot of it. Our burger with the hickory sauce is the most popular one.
BJ: How do you feel being... You can tell me whether there's more of your sort of peer restaurants around, but you know now that Glen's is gone and Split-T, you're really one of the landmarks... restaurants that are... Do you feel that way? Do you feel like you're one of the... Do you know of any of your old, long-time competitors... like peers that are still around?
DW: Oh, Johnnie's is still doing well. And I knew Johnnie very well. And he used to work for Vince Stevens over at Split-T. That's how Johnnie started. And then Johnnie quit and went out on his own and they're doing very well now.
BJ: They just don't seem... They don't have the sign and the drive-in and all that... You don't think of them that... But they are, you're right, they're an institution.
DW: Well, they went more into the deeper restaurant venture than... Ours is more of a drive-in type thing, or is a drive-in.
BJ: It is, yeah. And you have another store now on...
DW: Northwest Highway.
BJ: So those are the two... That's what you have now?
DW: Right. It's out on MacArthur. And they're both the same. Same menu.
BJ: You know I've never been to that one. Is it still laid out the same?
DW: Pretty much, yeah. It's a prettier place really, than the old one.
BJ: Yeah, I guess you're ri... I noticed the gardens a lot. It's... It's... I just never get out that way.
DW: And then we have carhop service there.
BJ: What made you decide to do that?
DW: Oh, we just thought we might give it a try and see how it worked. It works. Some people like it better.
BJ: Yeah, that's where I was thinking. People aren't used to...
DW: You're not under pressure to give your order and move. In line. Some people like that better than the drive-through.
BJ: At what point did you feel like you... You said that your... Basically your main motivation was to pay the bills, right? And be able to raise your family.
DW: Right.
BJ: And, you said you had three... What are your...
DW: We had three daughters.
BJ: Do you want to give their names, or do you...
DW: Oh, Ann Wilson and Sharon Wilson and Madeline Wilson.
BJ: Do you... When did you feel like you had "made it," so to speak? Or, when did you feel like you didn't have to work to pay bills, or whatever? Or, considered yourself a success, let's say?
DW: Oh, well, I think, I was enamored by a piano, in the... I think Jenkins Music store, in Penn Square. And my wife plays the piano and the kids were learning and I remember I had had eight hundred dollars cash in my pocket and I knew what I was going to do with it - I was going to buy that piano. So, I went down and paid cash for that piano and it's still sitting in our house, and they still play it. You know, when you can buy something that your family will use... needs...
BJ: And not have to think about it. Budgeting and all that kind of thing.
DW: Well in those days we didn't think much. We didn't have credit cards. Everything was cash. And it's just a different way of life than it is now.
BJ: And, I meant to ask... When you came back from the Air Force, and got started and all, where were you... Did you move back to the family home in Nichols Hills, or, where did you live during that time?
DW: Oh, no no no no no! We moved out of there a long time ago. Yeah, my family moved over on Hillcrest. 6622...
BJ: That's west Nichols Hills.
DW: No, that's just on the west part of it.
BJ: The west part of it.
DW: Yeah, right there on the golf course. And, my Dad bought that house in 1941, just about a month before the war broke out. Which was fortunate because after the war broke out you couldn't buy anything. Everything was gone. And then, of course, I went to school. I traveled... After eighteen I was gone.
BJ: So where did you... What part of the city did you live in when you came back?
DW: Oh, we lived on 51st and Robinson or Harvey down there behind...
BJ: Oh, back behind McGuiness?
DW: Yeah, behind McGuiness.
BJ: Zack Taylor neighborhood I think they call it now.
DW: Hyde Drug, is what I was trying to say.
BJ: Oh, right. Off Shartel.
DW: Right behind Hyde Drug.
BJ: So, yeah. 'Cause I guess you couldn't live that close to the restaurant.
DW: At that time that was the smallest and the cheapest.
BJ: And when did you... did you move... did you get better neighborhoods, or better houses as you went along?
DW: Well, we moved to Nichols Hills in about two years. We bought a little house there right on the edge of Nichols Hills. And then I built a house over on Lancaster about five years later, on the other side of the golf course. Now, we live at 14901 North Western. Have lived... been there for thirty-four years.
BJ: That was rural until probably ten years ago.
DW: Oh yeah, yeah.
BJ: So, what kind of a place... Did that have lots of property to it, or did you just...
DW: Five acres.
BJ: How did the... I guess you kind of talked about it. How did the business... Or, how did your business at the Northwest Highway... As Northwest Highway developed, did you just naturally get more and more business?
DW: We did.
BJ: Or did things stream along?
DW: Busier and busier.
BJ: So, do you think that all of that development obviously helped your success?
DW: Oh yeah, everything that's gone on helps us. But there's also a lot more competition.
BJ: Well, that's true.
DW: And, there's so much competition. It's a... The only way to, you know, approach the competition is try to do what you do better. And there isn't any magic to it. It has to be good, or they won't come back.
BJ: Considering like... I always think of that restaurant... I think it was... I think even when I remember it was Tony's Via Roma or something right... a couple of doors down from you.
DW: I knew Tony. Yeah.
BJ: And it's been so many restaurants, and then you're just two doors down, just...
DW: Well, Tony had it a long time.
BJ: Well, he did. That's right.
DW: He was a very good operator. Hard worker. Yeah, I think we've had a lot of Asian restaurants in that... down there.
BJ: Mexican one or two. It's just interesting to contrast those two locations. But you're right. Tony had been there a while, so... So, what have you done... What did you do... You were busy a lot, at the restaurants, but then what did you do for relaxation or for a...
DW: Well, I did a lot of things. I went through the fishing mode. And I guess I fished every place in the world. And then I've always been a hunter. I hunted quite a bit, back in the early years. And then I... We had a farm, in the '60s, out by where Express Ranch is. Out by Yukon. And I sold that, and then I bought another place up by Piedmont. So, we have a hay ranch now that we operate, which I enjoy. Very much so. And I always did farm work when I was a kid.
BJ: You did? Even living in Nichols Hills? Did you just go hire out to local farmers, or... That's interesting.
DW: Well, it was during the war, and they couldn't hire anybody, and my good friend Charles Mint... His family had the Barnes' Ranch out by Piedmont. That's how I got a taste of it. And they'd hire us boys for fifty cents an hour and say, "Now, Charles, bring all your buddies out. We've got a... There's no... We can't hire any labor." So, it had to be these kids. So, we learned to drive trucks, and combines, tractors, and drive the mules, and I just had a ball.
BJ: So now you get to do it for fun.
DW: Yeah. And we'd do hay the old-fashioned way. The buck rake on the team. That was the easy job. The hard job was pitching that hay on the bailer. And, I don't know, I just took to it and always loved it. So, I guess I've always been a farmer. And, we just do horse hay now. Fine horse hay. And it's so automated I can almost do it by myself. I don't get tired. And we put up the round bails. This last cutting, we did 563 round bails. I'm sorry 653 round bails.
BJ: And do you just sell them, or do you...
DW: I sold, you know, about half of them. And then we're cutting again now. We've got another four or five hundred.
BJ: I guess we've had some good rain this year.
DW: Oh yeah. Yeah, this has been a good year. Last year was not that good. But I do that. And then, of course, I've always ridden the horses with Barth. Barth Bracken and I been in the horse business for a long time and I just put my last horse over there on his ranch at Wagoner. But we'd had horses for years and had a lot of fun. Barth and I could write a book about the horses.
BJ: Well maybe you ought to.
DW: We went to all the competition together. And then he got ill there for a while and I bought his horse and went on and took him on and won every place I went, and... You know, when you win you have fun.
BJ: That's right. There's nothing more fun than winning.
DW: And so, I've got a bad hip and I have not ridden him in a year and then we lost our other horse, Lightning, so I was down to one horse and I took him over so he'd be with some of them that he was raised with. And so, Barth has him back. I gave him back. A didn't sell him back. I just got...
BJ: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you've helped each other out on a lot of horses.
DW: We do all kinds of swaps.
BJ: Well, we're getting close to the end, here. So, I wanted to ask, first of all, what kind of... I wonder what you thought of Oklahoma City in sort of the long scale that you being part of the business community and all that. What is...
DW: Oh, I absolutely love it. There's not a better place in the world, Buddy. And, just like all of... A lot of people can't wait to take a vacation, and I don't want to take a vacation. I used to go places and, you know, think that I was supposed to do that. And I couldn't wait to get back home and do what I'm doing. And I thought, "Why the heck go?" You know, heck, I just like it here. And, with our hay ranch out there and the family, they... everybody likes it. And helps in it, in and out, when they have time. And, it's... I just think Oklahoma can't be beat. And I just couldn't say enough for it. I've had a wonderful life. And I've never looked back on anything... I can't think of anything that was not right. Maybe I just grew up at the right time, but, I mean, high school we had a ball, and down at OU you couldn't have any more fun. And we didn't hurt anybody, but we sure had fun. And, I don't know. My life has just been wonderful. I wouldn't trade it for anything.
BJ: And our last question. What do you... You mentioned that your success at the Charcoal Oven and all that was to, you know... your fresh ingredients, and, you know, good product basically. But, now what about life? What would you tell youngsters today, or your grandchildren, or even your descendants that will listen to this? What's your... What do you want? What's the success... What's the secret to a good life?
DW: You must persevere. Pick out something you want to do and hit it hard. Stick to it. And you'll do good, eventually. And you must stay in the same thing for a long time to really get it to pay off. Because you reach different levels, and a lot of people are not educated into the new things that go on. Techniques, and, like, I'm a dinosaur now, in the restaurant business, compared to what goes on now. But I do know the basics, and you've got to make money, or you're not going to stay there. And so you protect that bottom line with a vengeance. I mean with weapons. You don't let anybody bother you or, I mean, you'll be gone. You pay the bills or that's it. And... but our favorite saying in the restaurant business is a joke - Grocery man delivers the groceries and presents you the bill and you say, "Well, I'll pay you just as soon as I sell these groceries." And, but that doesn't work anymore. See, that's the way it used to be. You've got to have cash up front. And, you just have to put your business first and your family second, is what it amounts to. And many times, I'd call home and say. "Well, you know, I can't go on the ski trip. We're... I just can't leave now." "Well, how come?" I always had a good reason.
BJ: Well, yeah. There would be no ski trip if I didn't stay.
DW: But my wife, she was very good about it. She understood. And we'd just postpone things. You just have to be flexible. But you've got to... You have to maintain that business. You don't go off and close your eyes. Because you will see a different picture when you get back. But I would just say keep your chin up and keep hitting it and you'll do good no matter what you do.
BJ: Well, we appreciate you're sharing with us and telling us your story. So, thank you very much.
DW: God bless America. That's what I say. Thank you.