Description:
Joyce Henderson talks about her life in Oklahoma City and her career as an educator.
Transcript:
Interviewee: Joyce Henderson
Interviewer: Dr. Gloria Joanne Pollard, Joyce’s first cousin
Interview Location:
Interview Date: 5/22/2007
Female Interviewer/Gloria Joan Pollard: Would you tell me your name, please?
Joyce Henderson: My name is Joyce Anne Johnson Henderson.
FI: And your birthdate?
JH: I was born January 12, 1947.
FI: What is our relationship?
JH: Our relationship is we’re first cousins.
FI: By way of?
JH: By way of, my mother is your daddy’s sister.
FI: Right. When and where were you born?
JH: I was born in Oklahoma City and reared in Green Pastures, USA.
FI: That’s right. [both laugh] Did you grow up there?
JH: That’s where I grew up with my parents and of course, my parents are Eddie Lee and Fanny Fae Johnson. I grew up on the same street and lived in four different houses on the same street. That street is now called Lenox.
FI: That’s not New York.
JH: That’s not New York. It’s Lenox.
FI: What is your earliest memory?
JH: My earliest memory is I guess remembering myself as a chatterbox. I can recall talking all of the time and I recall one day at church, the pastor at that time was Reverend Rankin. On Christmas, he asked if anyone in the audience had a speech. I had just learned in school a speech that I thought was appropriate for Christmas. It was, “Popcorn and peanuts, red and brown. Popcorn and peanuts, the best in town. Popcorn and peanuts, red and brown. Popcorn and peanuts, the best in town.” That was my fondest memory that I did on Christmas night that I did early in life.
FI: Was that before or after the fishing? He set up the fishing with a sheet to where we could throw a fishing pole over and he’d put toys on it.
JH: Oh, I forgot about that, but those were good memories too.
FI: What were your parents like?
JH: My parents, Eddie and Fanny Johnson, first of all, they loved each other, and then they loved us. In my family, Mother and Dad were both, I thought, strict parents. To look back over that, they were not strict parents. They were just giving us strong guidance. Both parents were, or at least my father, was the breadwinner. Mother stayed home with us until we were – I believe I was in the tenth grade. At that time, they brought in my daddy’s great-grandmother. Her name was Sally Mae Smith. She lived with us so Mother could work outside of the house. Prior to that, she did some day work, but at this time, she was getting ready to do what I called her career work. She started working for the Oklahoma Tax Commission. At any rate, they were both hard workers and dedicated workers. To me, we saw that they were role models for the four of us to emulate them in our work force.
FI: Where were they from?
JH: My daddy was born in Vian, Oklahoma.
FI: We went through Vian not too long ago.
JH: Oh, did you? Well, that’s where he was born, and of course, he lived in Anadarko, went to school there, and then they moved to Green Pastures, my dad did. My mother was born in Jones, Oklahoma, and she lived in the Jones area and Green Pastures. My parents met at Dunjee. They both attended Dunjee High School where they graduated from. That’s where they fell in love.
FI: I was asking how did they get to Oklahoma, but they were already here.
JH: They were already here. That’s right.
FI: How is your relationship with your parents?
JH: Oh, I think it was great. I think they were proud of – well, I know they were proud. I was the oldest of their four children, and we were, I’m going to say, fortunate to not have brothers.
FI: No male cousins.
JH: Right. So out of the four girls, we had four of us born in 7 years, so they could make each one of us feel special without us feeling as though one was getting more than the other. As I look back at my parents and what they did, they were definitely role models for us. My dad was also a singer in a quartet.
FI: An excellent singer and soloist.
JH: Well, he has – he was blessed with a beautiful voice.
FI: Tenor.
JH: Uh-huh [meaning yes]. You remember all of that too?
FI: Mm-hmm [meaning yes].
JH: Because of that, I’m going to say activity in the family, we had the opportunity to travel with him many times to hear the Oklahoma Sacred Singers perform. We knew we had the work week, but on the weekend, we knew we had the singing programs that we attended because our dad was part of that.
FI: Great relationship with your parents.
JH: I had a beautiful relationship with Mom and Dad. We used to think Mother was more strict than Dad because she did not hesitate to use the board of education, (Note: she likely means a wooden paddle here) and as a result of that, Dad didn’t have to do it as much, but Mother was determined that she was going to have four young ladies. Not just four girls, but four young ladies. I must say that it paid off.
FI: I wanted to say that he was a quiet father.
JH: He was a quiet father, but when he spoke, you listened.
FI: What were your grandparents’ names on both sides?
JH: On my mother’s side, of course, Johnny Johnson was her dad, and Willie Rupert was her mother. She died when my mother was very young. That is, my grandmother died when my mother was very young. On my daddy’s side, his parents lived a long time. His mother was Janie Johnson, and his father was McKinley Johnson Senior. As you see, my mother was a Johnson before a Johnson before she married a Johnson, so I’m a Johnson Johnson girl.
FI: Do you remember any of the stories they used to tell you?
JH: Yes. My daddy used to talk about, many times, stories down at the creek. I don’t know where these creeks were located, but evidently a lot of activities took place at the creek. For my mother, she talks about how, because her mother passed at her early age, she talks about or tell us stories about how she had to raise those brothers of hers. They didn’t want to be obedient to her, so we heard many stories of what would happen to Uncle Amos or Uncle Orfield or Uncle Arthur because Mother was now the – not the sister, but she was having to be the mother role for her younger siblings. Because of that role, there were many times that she had to do some things to make them mind. I’ll leave it at that.
FI: Who were your favorite relatives?
JH: Mother was one of 21 children. Her father married twice. Her set was eleven children. We got close to those uncles and aunts. I believe her younger brothers, because we didn’t have brothers, became our brothers. They were pretty rough with us. Mother would leave us in their hands when she needed a babysitter, and because we were so trifling, they would lock us in our rooms because we wouldn’t obey them like they thought we should have. I would say on my mother’s side, the two younger brothers, her two younger brothers, were considered the favorite uncles. I also had an Uncle Lester who was your father. He became my guardian angel in the Oklahoma City school district.
FI: Or you were his!
JH: He was my back. He didn’t let anybody talk about his niece Joyce, and I appreciated that. Of course, the employees knew that I was the niece to Lester Johnson, who was in the transportation department. On my mother’s side, because all of us were pretty close in age, I guess my daddy’s younger sister, Aunt Betty Jo, was one of my favorite relatives on his side of the family because we were more like sisters than like aunt. She was less than two years older than my age, so we were close. Even on weekends, on many occasions, she would stay overnight for the weekend.
FI: You didn’t walk to school, needless to say.
JH: No, I didn’t, but there were times we walked to band rehearsals because we did not have our parents at home during the day when we had activities at Dunjee School. You didn’t realize you were walking five or ten miles to go to the school.
FI: Actually, it was three miles, I think.
JH: Was it three? It felt like ten, especially in the summertime. It felt like ten. At any rate, on a regular day, we rode the school bus. When we had special practices, it was nothing for us to walk to the school and pick up other students as we walked to the school. We had fun, so really the distance was not an issue.
FI: On the last day of school, I think a lot of the kids got together and decided to walk home.
JH: That’s right, and it was fun.
FI: Describe your school life.
JH: My school life, I was fortunate enough to be in one building all my life, so to speak. Dunjee was on one campus. Dunjee Elementary, Junior High, and High School was all on the same campus. That, to me, lends itself to a family atmosphere because the older kids would look out for the younger kids. The experiences at Dunjee School, I would say, were priceless. The school itself was the hub of the community, so there were so many activities that took place there that I will cherish for the rest of my life. I was very active in the band. In fact, I was the drum majorette my senior year and had the opportunity to learn how to play the clarinet because in our band, Don Ledwhist did not allow majorettes to not learn how to play an instrument, so during the concert season we could still participate with the music department. I had so many opportunities to expand my growth because of what Dunjee School had to offer.
FI: Needless to say, you enjoyed school.
JH: I loved school. I was in everything. I did everything. Clara Luper being our class sponsor, to not do anything was not an option.
FI: Academically, what kind of student were you?
JH: Academically, I tell people that I was a socialite. Out of the four girls, my sister next to me was valedictorian. The third girl was salutatorian, and the fourth girl was valedictorian. I was neither, but I tell people that I was on the honor roll. I was Miss Socialite. I just wanted to be in everything and enjoy everything, but I kept my grades up, but I was not val or sal.
FI: What were winters like when you were growing up?
JH: Wintertime – I cannot stand coldness today because of the coldness I felt growing up. Ten degrees today was like five degrees to me as a child. I did not like coldness. I was the kind of person that when the heater was on, I had to be over the heater, not standing out because I wanted to feel the heat directly on my body. At any rate, I enjoyed winter because even though the coldness was an issue with me, like you I enjoyed the snow. I do remember making that ice cream was the highlight of the snow season, the winter season. We would make ice cream and would not share it with each other. When we made ice cream, that was mine and you could not have any. Each one would make – my sisters would make their ice cream and we would put it in the freezer, and it became personal. It was a personal journey for us because we truly enjoyed making our own ice cream.
FI: Did you have any responsibilities as a young person?
JH: Well, I was the oldest of four, so even though they didn’t give me respect for being the oldest of four girls, I really did try to make them obey me. That was truly a challenge because they felt like we were so close in age, I couldn’t tell them what to do. I would hold some things over their head if they did not obey me because they liked to borrow things like your clothes, et cetera. I would tell them if they didn’t mind, I was going to not allow them to wear my blouse or my skirt or whatever that could have been. As a child, being the oldest of four, I felt like I got my leadership skills by being the oldest of four. In many cases, you had to be creative in getting your siblings to cooperate with you.
FI: That’s right. Did you cook?
JH: I did cook. I hated it. I still hate it today, but I did cook because I had to. As I look back over my cooking life, there were things that I enjoyed cooking. Living in the country, we had a garden. We were creative enough to have our own little garden. My sisters would have their own little row and I would have my row. Things like greens, string beans, watermelon, became personal with me. You didn’t touch my greens and I didn’t touch your greens. When we would cook our little vegetables, that was the joy. I learned how to cook things that I grew thanks to Mother because one thing we didn’t want to do, and unfortunately we didn’t want to share our cookings, so I just want you to know that as a child, I didn’t like cooking, but that that I grew and cooked, I enjoyed.
FI: Do you still grow things?
JH: No. I have no desire to grow anything.
FI: Except flowers.
JH: I have no desire to cook. I love flowers. I do love flowers. That started back when I was child because as a child, I used to sell flower seeds. I would make enough money to buy a camera. They had a little catalogue. I guess I was an entrepreneur.
FI: A Brownie camera.
JH: A little Brownie camera that was special to me. I took many pictures. Selling seeds as a child gave me an opportunity again to be a leader.
FI: Did you finally get all of those films developed?
JH: No, but what I do remember is it didn’t cost as much as it did back then to get them developed. For the most part, Mother did not take those films to the shop or wherever they went to get developed, but I took the pictures and I bought me films.
FI: Did you get into trouble when you were young?
JH: I was a mouthy little girl. I got in more trouble with my mother because for whatever reason, I felt like I needed to have the last word. I don’t know why, but if she said, “Joyce, do this,” then I had to have a conversation about why I had to do it and then if she said, “Because I said so,” then I wanted to elaborate on why couldn’t Barbara or why couldn’t Etta. That led to many whippings. [both laugh]
FI: Can you think of the worst thing that you did?
JH: To me, one of the worst things that I did is I was a senior in high school. Mother thought that I was trying to still get the last word in. She asked me to set the table, and I was upset because I had to set the table. Why couldn’t one of the others? In the meantime, after I did it, I left off one – it was a fork or a spoon. She thought I did it deliberately to get the last word in, so to speak. When she looked at the table and it was not completed, she thought I did it deliberately. As a senior in high school, I got another whipping. [both laugh]
FI: That was terrible.
JH: It really was terrible.
FI: Did you tell your friends about it?
JH: No, I didn’t. I thought, “I’m a senior in high school and I’m still getting whippings?” But I was a disobedient child, still trying to get the last word in, and I won’t forget that.
FI: Why don’t you tell me about some of the teachers who had a strong influence on your life?
JH: I can truly say like you I had many mentors at Dunjee School, namely Clara Luper and Nancy Davis, Doris Combs, Los Angeles Joseph, Johnny Stephens - Stephenson, Lula Morissette, Donald Edwards – the band director. He was one of my strong influences. The teachers became your second moms or your second dad, whether we wanted them to or not. Lillian Jones – when I listened to words of wisdom from them, I find myself today seeing some of those quotes. Lillian Jones, if you leaned back in your chair, she’d tell you the man who made that chair didn’t mean for it to mean for it to sit on two legs. It had four legs. We had to make sure the four legs were on the chair. Clara Luper, when you were talking down the hall, you could not walk with your head down because she would stop you and tell you, “Walk like you’re going somewhere.” Nancy Davis’s personality that did not allow you to give up when you were trying to hem a dress or put a buttonhole in. Doris Combs taught you to articulate and Los Angeles Joseph, who gave me so many experiences in plays and drama.
FI: Debate.
JH: Mm-hmm [meaning yes]. With Donald Edwards, he was probably one of those serious kind of band instructors who just did not allow you to not give it your best. He believed in us giving our best when we performed, so we learned so many lessons from each teacher at Dunjee School.
FI: Do you have some favorite stories from your childhood?
JH: I recall, again, Clara Luper gave me my last board of education experiences when I was a senior in school. I was the secretary of my class and had the responsibility of ordering the class rings. For whatever reason, I was slow in doing that, and one day she asked me for the last time, “Joyce, have you mailed off the ring order?” I said, “No, Miss Luper, but I’m going to.” She was in the office. Without thinking, she called me back out of the hall and into her room. She said, “Joyce Johnson, come here. Go in my room and get that paddle off my desk.” I thought it was for somebody else. I went and got the paddle, and she said, “I’ve been asking you for ABCD to get that order off. I’m going to teach you responsibilities. Turn around.” She gave me five swats. Again, embarrassed my senior year, but I took care of it. To me, that was a turning point for knowing the real meaning of responsibility. I used that as an example to say that we procrastinate on things, but just do it. That would have eliminated those swats that I got that day.
FI: Right. Would you describe yourself as having been a happy child?
JH: I was a happy child. I didn’t know not to be happy. I didn’t consider our family poor. I didn’t know what that was. I didn’t consider our family – we were a family of, I would say, fun and just enjoyed each other. Plus, we had the extended family. We had a great-great grandmother who lived with us, so we had extended family in my household. We had no choice but to be obedient. That was one thing. I regret not taking advantage of a lot of history that I could have gained from her. That was my Grandma Sally, who moved in with us from Vian, Oklahoma. As I look back, I think about the opportunities that I missed because we were, as kids, more involved in doing our thing rather than listening. She wanted to, on many occasions, talk to us about when she was young and what it was like growing up. We thought that as kids, we don’t want to hear that old stuff and did not take advantage of some history [door closes] that we could have truly gained if we had just stopped, at least stopped more than we did to hear about history.
FI: Can you think of an experience that was your very worst as a child?
JH: [pause] I remember a puppy that we called Polly. That was a black Cocker Spaniel dog that we all just loved. It was like – I don’t like dogs today – but we grew up with Polly. That was one dog that, for whatever reason, ran away. I remember being so sad about we don’t know where she went. Mom and Dad could have taken her somewhere. We don’t know. That was a favorite little animal that we enjoyed as a child, having Polly. For whatever reason, Polly would make you happy even when you were sad about something because she would come play with you and we would play with Polly. That was probably one sad thing that I remember.
FI: The key word is “she.”
JH: We assumed it was a she.
FI: Probably, but usually they would take the shes away.
JH: Yes, probably did, but we didn’t know that.
FI: Daddy did a lot of that. Who was the most important person in your life? Tell me about him or her.
JH: I think, when you nail it down, I did admire my dad a lot because my dad had polio, but it was never an excuse for anything. To me, I recall those days Daddy worked more than one job because whatever happened, when one job would end, I remember those lean days that Mother would not say we couldn’t have it because of money, but we knew that something was different in the house. At any rate, my dad was one who provided for us. He built our home from the ground up, and he did that with those heavy stones. I recall that my daddy is so smart. He can build a house. I remember that sticking out in my mind because I felt like we had a house built out of stone and not out of wood. That was special for me as a child.
FI: Those experiences probably helped him to become financially astute. He became an expert in finances.
JH: He did, and he also was, I know, a good budget planner.
FI: Oh yes. He even told us how to play in Vegas.
JH: Oh, I can believe that. My dad is full of a lot of advice.
FI: What did you do for fun?
JH: For fun, I do recall Mom and Dad taking us on trips, too. Mother had a lot of relatives, and my dad’s father lived in California, so it was like every other summer, we would drive to California and meet practically every relative we knew while we were up there on those few days. To me, that was fun. We didn’t live in hotels when we would drive to go and visit Mother’s sisters and my dad’s relatives. At that time, his dad lived in Tulare, California. We would pull over on the side of the road and sleep in the car. Never thought about the expense of paying for a hotel or anything like that. We would pack our food in a chest and we would have ice in there, so we didn’t have a lot of food expenses while traveling and going to California, going to Salt Lake City, places like that. We would look forward to the summers that we could travel by way of my daddy driving. Back then, you didn’t have all those nice highways. We would get nervous about going in the mountains. We would travel through the mountains and you didn’t have those rails. We worried about whether or not we were going to fall off the highway. I recall that. We couldn’t sleep during those times, but I recall those were happy times for us.
FI: They were happy times for us too because we looked forward to you coming back and we could look at the stickers on your windows to see where all you had been.
JH: That was a big thing back then. We would take those stickers and that I guess that was to announce to the public that we had been out of Oklahoma. [both laugh] I remember that so well. People just don’t do that anymore.
FI: Oh, they have them. People just don’t like to put them on their cars. Did you have a nickname and how did you get it?
JH: Well, I’ve had many nicknames. I grew up being skinny, and so I had relatives who called me String Bean. That was one nickname. I was also called by some of my high school classmates and I don’t know if it should be public, but he did it, and when I went to college, I was called Tar Baby. That was because I had the darker complexion. Mind you, it was to be a compliment because I had, as he called it, smooth, dark skin. I didn’t like the name, but that’s what some of the guys called me. Tar Baby. When I was growing up, my sister Barbara could not say “Joyce Anne,” so she would say, “Din Anne.” We don’t know when she stopped calling me Din Anne, but she would come into the classroom when she needed to see me and ask the teacher to speak to Din Anne. I recall the teacher saying, “Who is Din Anne?” I said, “That’s my name. That’s what she called me.” Joyce Anne. Din Anne. We just assumed she never heard Joyce Anne, but Din Anne was the name. Those were three names that I will share with the public.
FI: Who were your best friends and what were they like?
JH: I had another cousin by the name of Claudia Gaul. She was my best friend. Gwendolyn Reat Lewis was my best friend. Joyce Jenkins Jacobs, another best friend. Carrie Downs Harris. Dessie Harrison Crump. Dessie and Joyce are now deceased, but those were close friends of mine growing up.
FI: How would you describe a perfect day when you were young?
JH: A perfect day for me was, “Mama, can I go and visit Joanne and them?” Mother would never hesitate to say that it was okay to go down the street to visit our cousins. Because you all stayed within walking distance within a block, we sisters could go down the street or you all would come up to your house and we would play. That was a good day because on some of those occasions, we may go and raid a pear tree, or we may go and raid an apple tree, not to mention the grapes that we may recover from somebody’s vine. Those are the good days that we would go and do something together as a group, never to hurt anyone but just to have fun.
FI: Complained when we had to do the blackberries.
JH: Yeah. I remember the blackberries, but we enjoyed the blackberry pies. [metallic crashing sound, possibly a door slamming]
FI: They’re blooming by the way.
JH: They are? Okay.
FI: What did you think you were going to be when you grew up?
JH: I knew I was going to be a teacher, and I’ll tell you why. When we were at home in the summertime, I would play school with my sisters. We would line up four chairs, and for whatever reason, I was always the teacher. Two would sit in the front, and of course we had one sitting on the back row. We’d come up with any creative topic and would act like I was one of my teachers, teaching my sisters, so I’ve had in my mind that I was going to be a teacher at an early age. I also had the experience of because Dunjee was on the same campus with elementary schools, if a teacher did not show up, they would come and get high school students to serve as the substitute teacher. That was a thrill for me on any particular day if the principal would come in and ask the teacher, “Could we use one of your kids to cover?” Back then, I guess it wasn’t against the law because we did it. I would go into an elementary class and act like I was the teacher. That was ingrained in me early on in life.
FI: They respected you as if you were the teacher, too.
JH: Yeah, they did.
FI: They were afraid of those teachers.
JH: That’s right. You were in high school, but those elementary kids did not challenge you. If you said you were going to go over whatever the lesson was, et cetera, it was never a problem.
FI: For some reason, I think that was ingrained in the youngsters because as we were growing up, people like Betty Wedge were (unintelligible). We looked up to them, even though they were in school and we were too. It was part of the school make up.
JH: To me, there are advantages when you do have the older kids with the younger kids.
FI: That’s right. What are some of your best memories of elementary school, middle school, high school, college, graduate school, and some worst memories?
JH: When I was in elementary school, I remember this kid that I had a crush on. For whatever reason, we didn’t go out for recess on a particular day. We smooched each other. It was a kiss I’ll never forget. It wasn’t long. It was just a smack, but because it was from the little classmate that I thought was so cute, I won’t forget that. That was in my elementary days. In my junior high school, we had a little girls’ club, and the girls’ club was called our pen pal club. Our purpose was to help as somebody early on as junior high school. We would meet during the lunchtime and the dues were one penny. You’d be surprised that we got one dollar. That was really exciting to us. I recall we had to decide, in our little club, how we were going to spend that dollar or whatever the amount was for some charity. That was our purpose as a little girls’ club. That was a memorable moment for me.
In high school, I think being a part of the Martin Luther King “I Have a Dream” experience, I will never forget that because Clara Luper was the key in allowing some of her students to go to the Freedom March in Washington D.C. Back in August of 1963, I was going into my senior year of high school, so that was an experience, to go with the NAACP because we were active then, and to hear Dr. King deliver that “I Have a Dream” address. I was also excited about that more so because I got to hear Mahalia Jackson. She sang, “I’ve Been Buked, and I’ve Been Scorned” and I won’t forget that. I believe she stood out with me because I was one of her fan club members, and to see her –
FI: “The Rusty Old Halo.”
JH: Yeah, I guess so. That was one of my favorites. At any rate, that experience had an impact on me. Of course, back then he was alive, but after his assassination, I have been so thankful that I had that experience to see and hear that live instead of just seeing it on television. In my college years, I’ve had many experiences and of course that’s when I met my love of now 40 years. He had graduated college, but because his cousin played Cupid, I was able to – she was telling him that I said hello and she was telling me that he said hello, and we hadn’t said anything to each other, but she was matchmaking. It worked because we’ve been married what will be 40 years in July.
FI: Great. How did he propose?
JH: He claimed that I was just so anxious to marry him that I couldn’t wait for him. He claimed that I took him to a lot of weddings to give him hints that he should ask me, but I won’t forget it. He bought my ring on Christmas Eve and proposed to me, and it was at that time that we got engaged during the Christmas holidays.
FI: That’s special.
JH: Mm-hmm [meaning yes]. It was special.
FI: How has your life been different from the way you imagined it would be?
JH: I knew I wanted to be a teacher, but I didn’t know I would go as far as I have gone in the world of education. As a result of having so many good people in my life, I have been exposed to so many great people. As a result of that, I have been able to move forward because they have seen things in me that I didn’t see in myself, and as a result of that, I was able to move up the ladder in education. Having served as a high school principal for approximately 20 years probably would be the highlight of my career, and that’s because I had the opportunity to go back to my community and serve as the principal of the high school, and that was Star Spencer High School. I was able to be principal of a school that was part of a major case, Board of Education versus Dowell, and to be able to have been the principal of that particular school was a milestone to me. There were so many things in my life that I experienced in the field of education that I consider priceless.
FI: So apparently, you liked your job.
JH: I loved my job.
FI: Do you like your job now? Tell us what you’re doing now.
JH: What I’m doing now is I’m a retired educator after 37 years in education, but I discovered just because you have “retired” as a title, it doesn’t mean anything. You still have opportunities to serve, but in a different way. I’m able now to do what I want, when I want, still in the name of service. Also, in the name of education because I am honored at the Marcus Garvey Charter School. They’ve named their tutoring program after me. I consider that a true honor. I am working with education committees. I have been fortunate enough to do some motivational speaking, and I’m taking advantage of all of the experiences I have had in my career. I’m able to still share them in my retirement years.
FI: Excellent. So you’ve learned a lot of lessons from your life’s work.
JH: A lot of lessons. I’ve learned that people don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. That has been a favorite quotation of mine. The author is unknown to me, but it is a motto that I have felt so important in this business of education. You can have all kinds of degrees but if they don’t think you care, to me they are worthless.
FI: Now we’re switching.
JH: All right.
FI: It’s your chance to tell me about me. Have you learned anything from me, and has it meant anything positive? [laughing]
JH: I can truly say yes because first of all, you were the first, and I called you Joanne because growing up, that was the name we called you, your professional name, Dr. Gloria Joanne Pollard. Growing up, I considered you smart. You were the first valedictorian - I considered you valedictorian, but I understand you said you were sal, salutatorian, but in my eyes you were the val. We just considered you as the smart cousin. Not a nerd, just the smart cousin. Because of that, you were the first that I was tuned in to, to go to college. That was special as a relative because I had a relative go to college. I did not know of any other relative to attend college, but I recall you were in college. Seeing that put college in my mind as a possibility, so you didn’t know that, but I want to say that that’s what I recall as a cousin, that you inspired the rest of us to go to college.
The other thing is we didn’t know anything about sororities. You went Alpha Kappa Alpha. I didn’t know anything about sororities. I tuned into sororities, so at that time, I want you to know that going to college and going into the right sorority [FI laughs], you led the way for me. I want to thank you for that.
FI: [laughing] Wow. I didn’t know that. That’s why you were after me, the graduate! What was I like as a child?
JH: As a child, I recall those days when you were in the hospital. I never really knew why you were in the hospital except you would come home, you’d be home for awhile, and then you were gone again. We didn’t understand all of medical reasons about anything back then. We just knew that you would be back. That was for sure. The thing that I do know about you is I recall one Christmas, you gave me a stuffed animal. I don’t know if it was a teddy bear or what, but you gave all of the kids a gift. I remember saying to you, “Where did you get all your money to buy us a gift?”
FI: Now you know!
JH: Now I know. At my 60th year in life, now I know, but I recall that was so special. I won’t forget that.
FI: (unintelligible) It was a blessing. We were all blessed. Okay. The songs we used to sing – do you still sing any of those?
JH: Well, it’s a funny thing. “In the Garden” – “I Come to the Garden” – that was one that I recall. At that time, Mrs. Wedgeworth was our pianist.
FI: Everything sounded just alike.
JH: Same rhythm. We didn’t really break into soprano, etc., but we kind of did that on our own. That’s one song to me that is ageless. The song that you talked about, “The Rusty Old Halo,” I would just love to find a record somewhere because just to hear the title of the song, you immediately go back into your childhood because we did that particular song probably on every musical. We did that with pride and confidence and all of that, and if we couldn’t sing, we didn’t know we couldn’t because we sang as though we knew we could sing.
FI: And no one told us we couldn’t.
JH: That’s right.
FI: What were the hardest moments you had when I was growing up?
JH: I think you have a sense of security when you know you have certain relatives in school. Not having brothers, but we had family, I recall when you graduated from high school there was a sense of you’re not going to be there, and you don’t really understand that. It’s just the feeling. I just recall that moment.
FI: What were your dreams for me? [sniffling]
JH: I think you fulfilled them. First of all, the one thing that I’m aware of is when you went to college, being successful. I think with our families, we experience that all the time with the reunions.
FI: [starting to cry] This isn’t good.
JH: [voice breaking] I think we realize what connection we do have even though we may not be in each other’s presence everyday. I think we understand that we’re there for each other through thick or thin.
FI: [crying] Are you proud of me?
JH: [also crying] Very much. [laughs]
FI: [simultaneously laughing and crying] I’m proud of you too. What are some of the most important things that you’ve learned from life?
(Note: From this point through to the end of the interview, both women are sniffling continuously as a result of crying.)
JH: First of all, I’ve learned from my parents of being good role models. Hopefully my husband and I have been role models for our children and grandchildren. The many lessons you’ve had growing up, you don’t know what impact they’ve had until you have your children. We have two sons. I hear myself sounding like Mama, and I know even though my husband is not a blood relative, to me he acts like my daddy. He portrays some of those characteristics to our sons. They have sometimes – people say you marry that remind you of your parents, and I think I’ve done that, not consciously, but as you look back over it you say there are some characteristics that are similar to my dad by way of my husband. At any rate, I just think that from my parents, we have modeled more than we could have imagined with our own children.
FI: Is there anything you’ve never told me but you want to tell me now? Now that I can take it. [both laugh]
JH: You tell people you want to give flowers when they can smell them, and the one thing that I know we don’t say to each other as much and that is that we love each other. We have a kinship that I’m going to say is priceless, not that you have to wave a banner all of the time. A lot of it us just in our blood to know that we’re proud of each other, and that I’m proud of what you’ve accomplished in life.
FI: Thank you. Any words of wisdom I need? [both laugh]
JH: The only – I don’t know if I would call them words of wisdom, but to just remind you to continue to care for people like you do. You can never go wrong with the love and care that I see you exhibit, especially for your family, and I know for friends and family.
FI: Well, we’re getting down to the wire. What are the most important lessons you’ve learned in life?
JH: I’ve learned patience. That’s one thing that I’ve learned. I’ve also learned that there was that saying that it may not come when you want it. He may not come when you want him, but he’s right on time. My faith has made me believe that. You may not understand why certain things happen at that time, but in due time, as the old folks used to say, you’ll understand it better, by and by. I think I’ve lived long enough now to understand what that means.
FI: I’m so happy to hear you talk about Grandma Sally because you would always say she’s always at the door. She always was. She watched everybody that came in. We always looked forward to that. We felt welcomed.
JH: We felt like she was being nosy.
FI: You said you couldn’t have parties because Grandma was there.
JH: She was the matriarch of the house, and I guess as kids we felt like we were denied some things that we thought we should have had. As you look back, it may not have been important, but it was important to us at the time. My daddy respected her and my mother respected her.
FI: Everybody respected her.
JH: That, too me, was a lesson itself.
FI: Right. How would you like to be remembered?
JH: For me, I would say that remember me as a person first, who cared, and that I did it all. I have been blessed with so many – I’m going to say talents, being able to play the piano, being able to do what little singing I do, being able to be a teacher and to be a principal, to be a community volunteer-type person. I also hope that my family would remember me as a good mom, a good wife, and a good granny.
FI: Well, I certainly hope that if Miss Luper had a chance to listen to this that she didn’t pick up too many “ums.”
JH: Well, I did use some “ums” because in our days, we received as many swats as “ums.”
FI: Mine were in my head.
JH: Mine were not in my head. Mine were on my backside. She made us conscious of the word “um,” and here it goes. My “ums” today are probably because I am trying to think more than anything.
FI: Make sure you say the right words.
JH: The right thing. I do know if she heard me, the “ums” would be a no-no.
FI: IS there anything that we’ve not covered?
JH: I don’t think so. I just know that this opportunity to do this conversation with you is a reward and a highlight, I would say.
FI: We’ve never taken time out to do this.
JH: No, we haven’t, and it is priceless.
FI: It certainly is.
End of interview