Description:
Byron Gambulos talks about the Oklahoma City Zoo.
Interviewee: Byron Gambulos
Interviewer: Amy Stephens
Interview Date: January 13th, 2010
Interview Location: Oklahoma City Zoo, Oklahoma City
Transcribed on Thursday, September 6th, 2012
AS: So, Gambulos, Mr. Gambulos, go ahead and give us your age, your full name.
BG: My father was Mr. Gambulos. I'm Byron (inaudible).
AS: Okay, Byron. So what's your age and your full name.
BG: Oh my God.
AS: I know. I know.
BG: Byron J. Gambulos. Birth, 3rd December '26.
AS: And what is your very first memory of the Zoo?
BG: The best memory in the world. Pat and I used to come out here all the time when my children - one child was very young. I got recalled for the Army in 1950 and I got out in 1952, April. I came home to go on leave, to go overseas again, and, at the last minute I decided that I would hold off on going until the last minute before I left. And at six o'clock that morning I got a telephone call from the Department of the Army Career Management said quote, "Stay where you are for thirty days and we'll discharge you." At which point my wife and I - and I have two children - and we'd take our two babies and we'd pack up 'cause in those days we did not have eating facilities at the zoo. And we made some sandwiches and we came out and spent the day at the zoo. And we had the best time in the world and for whatever stupid reason it was it always remained in my head.
Then, I kind of used to just come out from time to time. And about that time Admiral Kirkpatrick - General... Mr. Kirkpatrick came out - I call him Admiral - and took over the Society and started to build what we have today. And one day I got a call from the Admiral saying quote, "Byron, you're in the retail business and I... cash registers aren't working right and can you get out here now?" And I say, "Yes sir." And I reported out here. And we kind of re-did the cash registers up front and wherever we were taking in cash and tried to set up a system that he would like and we could make money on. And so from then on out, I kind of was at the beck and call of the Admiral because he's my dear friend. If he told me to jump I'd say, "High." I didn't even say, "High," I'd just jump. So that's how I got started in the Zoo.
Then, I can't remember what year. Larry Curtis was the Director. He had just been put on board. And Larry Curtis had gone to high school at Dallas with my brother at Highland Park High School, and he called and then said, "Come out and help me with the little stands and how do we handle the cash registers," and so on and so forth and so I started just kind of acting as an advisor on how to handle money. And then I got really engrossed in it. I met Ron Rosser, and... the Tree House, I can't think of the name of it, Boyleson. And that group was on the board of the Society. And it was just in its very inception, the Society. And Martha Jo Stern was the gal that was running the show. And she would have meetings at either her home or the YMCA or someplace, YWCA. And my wife and Miss Boyles, Don
Zackert's wife, Ron Rosser for sure, Double Barrel for sure, these ladies all got together and started the Society. And then I used to come out and whenever it came to handling money or setting up different things relating to concession stands etcetera, I worked. And that's how I got involved.
AS: Now, for the record, you mentioned your business in retail. Explain your life's business.
BG: I've been in many businesses. But my primary goal... business is the liquor business. Well it was. It's not now but it was then. And that's where I learned to handle different cashier stations and how to handle money.
AS: So, what are some of the changes you've seen in the way the Zoo looks and works?
BG: Unbel... Are you kidding? We had 1898 WPA project out here. And the animals were what, twenty by twenty for the animal...the cages and... was an archaic zoo. But we go back now to the history of the Oklahoma City Zoo. It started at Wheeler Park. That was the first deal. And my father-in-law was the gentleman that developed Delmar Gardens, which was the first amusement park west of the Mississippi River, and it ran in conjunction to Wheeler Park. So when you came to Oklahoma City in the old days, we're talking 1902 to about 1910, you went to the zoo at Wheeler Park and you went to Delmar Gardens, or vice versa. In fact Anton Classen built the first railway from the two railroad stations to Delmar Gardens and Wheeler Park.
AS: Oh Really?
BG: Um Hmm.
AS: Okay. I did... I didn't... I've read that was because of parade routes and they just needed to get people to these...
BG: The big deal was when Teddy Roosevelt came here, what, in 1902 I believe, and lead the parade and it went to Wheeler... ended up going down Reno to Wheeler Park. And then they went from there over to Delmar Gardens and had a few toddies and that was the starting of the Teddy Roosevelt convention, if my father-in-law's telling me the right words here. I wasn't here then.
AS: Do you have some memorabilia from those days?
BG: We've got all the books from Delmar Gardens, including when John L. Sullivan ran the first motor race in Oklahoma City, at Delmar Gardens. They raced... cute story: Geronimo was hated by the Americans. And he was incarcerated at Fort Sill. My father-in-law was to get him out of Fort Sill every weekend and get him up here where he'd sign his post cards at the Delmar Gardens. So, one day, one of the town builders in this city died and he died penniless. And he had a wife and two children. And so, a man by the name of Hale was a mule trader and horse trader. He used to have the Hale's building down on Main and Rob... Harvey. Robinson. And so Anton Classen and this original group that started Oklahoma City decided that they would have a big horse race at Delmar Gardens because Delmar Gardens had a race track and that was the first race track - legal race track in the state of Oklahoma. 1903. And so they got Geronimo to ride a horse that was provided by Mister Hale, the mule trader. He made all his money in World War I as a horse and mule trader for the Army. And so Mister Hale got a real fast horse and they put Geronimo on it and he won. Everybody vote... gambled against him. When they lost they took all the money and they gave it to the widow to support the two children.
AS: Huh!
BG: Yes. That's in AAA Magazine article about thirty years ago.
AS: Really!
BG: So, at Delmar Gardens they had in addition... this was the first time that you combined really the zoo and attractions to bring people into Oklahoma City, and it was a major traffic drawer. The Mule Barn for Anton Classen was where to Black Hotel is that would be the southeast... southwest corner of Main and Hudson. Used to be called the Black Hotel; it's an office building now. And that was the car barns for the first traffic system pulled by mules. And they would go there to the two railroad stations and Delmar Gardens. That was the three points of interest to get people out there. The first Constitutional Convention in the State of Oklahoma was held at the Delmar Gardens and signed on my Dad's... my father-in-law's desk.
AS: So what has happened to Delmar Gardens?
BG: It was closed in 1910 after the flood. And then they, Sinopoulos, moved from Delmar Gardens. They bought the Overholser Opera House and converted it to the Orpheum Theater. And then they built all the theaters downtown, with the exception of the Criterion, up 'til about 1936.
AS: Interesting. Now...
BG: We're deviating from the Zoo now.
AS: Well, yeah. That's okay. But this is an important part of history. You know. And this is for public record, not just for the Zoo. So let... but let's go to Wheeler Park, then. What are, what is your knowledge of what happened to Wheeler Park and how it's changed?
BG: Wheeler Park did real good until I think it was about 1910. They had the flood in 1909.
AS: The flood was in '23.
BG: If I remember in 1910. And that's when Delmar Gardens closed and Wheeler Park went underwater at that point too. That's when the city fathers decided that they wanted to move east, and I can't remember who owned this property out here.
AS: Well, what I've been reading is...
BG: They gave that property to the...
AS: This was owned by the Parks Department in '20, because...
BG: Well before that... we're going back now...
AS: The final flood was in '23. There was a big flood in '09, and a big flood in '10.
BG: That's right. And that's the end of Wheeler Park.
AS: And all the way until '23, then they said, "Forget it."
BG: The same time that Delmar Gardens went under.
AS: Right. Okay. So, what are some of your favorite animals out here? Do you have a passion for the animals?
BG: The okapi is kind of close to my heart because the first okapi Oklahoma City ever got was back in the '60s-'70s. And, we were one of the first zoos in the United States to get one. And in order to celebrate it we had a director's meeting of the Society. And I managed to get hold of a case of Okapi wine from Africa. And we sold those drinks of that wine at the deal that night to raise money to pay for improvements. And then we got through somebody said, "I want the bottle." And with that we sold the twelve bottles for more than we sold the wine for.
AS: Really!
BG: Yes. And so therefore okapi are always close to my heart. Number two animal would be the elephants. Got a good reason for that too. There used to be a psychiatrist here by the name of Jolie West that worked at OMRF. And Jolie West was a pure genius. In fact he was a General in the Air Force Medical at about thirty years old. And he was at OMRF working on sleep deprivation and how that could be corrected. And he and a guy by the name of O'Leary that invented LSD, I can't remember... O'Leary I think was his name. And they started working together with the idea that LSD would be a great sleep... it started out as a medication. And they just played around with this and played around with it and Jolie started really researching it and he decided that when an elephant - male elephant is in heat there's very little that will pacify him and placate him. And his sleep pattern is very erratic. And based on that he started dwelling into LSD in elephants and sleep patterns transferred to humans. This is true. And I know it sounds crazy. And he got a group of us to buy an elephant for him.
AS: You all bought Tuska?
BG: We bought an elephant. And a group of us that were involved with OMRF. And the deal was that we would give the elephant to the zoo. And then he could kind of do his experiments on his sleep program. So one day he had a whole bunch of people here. And he brought the elephant out, and Jolie goes to great presentation... so many grams of this... take a man that weighs 400 pounds and make him very happy and complacent and sleep. And we're going to take this same amount of LSD and inject it into this elephant. At which point we got a dart gun out and hit the elephant with the LSD and guess what. He dropped dead. And I used to collect - still collect guns. And I used to go out hunting and I have a lot of, you know, game trophies. And the only thing I wanted out of it was one of the feet so I could make an umbrella stand out of it for the front door but they wouldn't give it to me.
AS: Oh, no!
BG: But anyway that... so that got me started with the elephants. And they were talking about Asian elephants and African elephants - difference. And now we are settling here on Asian elephants. And as the population of the zoos all over the country begins to diminish because of the ground space, Oklahoma City's probably in cat-bird position to be number one elephant collector in the country. So
that's number two reason. Number three reason: the monkeys! I love them. Now, I don't have a story on that one though.
AS: Do you remember the monkey ship?
BG: Of course! That was the biggest draw in the country. That was the only thing in the zoo that was good. You walk in the front door and there was... in the middle... big... ship, with monkeys on it.
AS: You know, when I was a kid, I remember a lot of concrete, red dirt, bars. The zoo's changed a lot. What are some changes that you've noticed?
BG: It's unbelievable. Okay, let's go back to the zoo. When Kirkpatrick formed the Zoological Society back in the late '60s or early '70s - I can't remember, his passion was to develop enough land here so that we could expand our zoo to be one of The Zoos in America. And if you'll think about it, he acquired most of the land or the rights to the land, somehow, from 36th Street all the way out to the highway, well, 63rd really. Okay, where the racetrack is right now, that used to be where the vet services were, and the breeding program. Did you know that? Yeah, down in the hole. And so, he was smart to guide us into acquiring land and at this point probably Oklahoma City Zoo has land, more land than any other zoo in the United States unless take San Diego as a perfect example, they've run out of zoo. They can't do anything there. They have to go put the animal exhibit, what, thirty miles north.
AS: Umm, landmarks. Yeah. Well, so...
BG: And so now, we come back to that, and pretty soon DeBartolo comes to town one day, and we're sitting here struggling. We have three big problems: we have a lot of dreams and a lot of people involved, and no money. And so at that point it was kind of, "Where do we go and how?" Admiral Kirkpatrick goes ahead and acquires this land, and then DeBartolo comes to town and says we're going to do the racetrack. And the Admiral didn't really like that because it was going to take X number of acres away from the zoo. In fact, we suffer today at this zoo from a shortage of parking because we gave some of our parking to DeBartolo. But we got the use of it back when we made this new lease with Magna. So now, that was the one big difference.
Then, the zoo has changed so completely that it hurts. I mean, before, we were just kind of ragtag. And let's go back to Larry Curtis. I think he did, as our first Director he did a heck of a job. He was three-fourths promoter, one heck of a zoo administrator. I don't know how good of an animal man he was, but he could maneuver people and animals pretty well. And he worked very diligently to help us really develop the first insight to a major zoo attraction. It was under his administration that... we used to have a gift shop that was always losing money and we didn't know what we were doing and we were los... and Larry was the one that... we took the... that away and gave it to the man that used to be... had the sales for Cowboy Hall of Fame. And I can't remember his name. He used to drive this big truck with windows in it before SUVs became popular. And so we sold that to him for forty thousand dollars - all the junk we had accumulated. We took that money and put it into revamping the amphitheater, which had been built during WPA, and then we really let it go to waste for a long time. We took that money and kind of cleaned that thing up and we started... In fact the first we opened that up, the amphitheater... Hank Thompson, Jr. We had him here. We got the city to give us the rights to sell beer, because up until then there were no alcoholic beverages sold on the property. And got to sell beer - three two. We sold eighty-five kegs of beer and we took in - I think we made about eight-five ninety thousand dollars and all of a sudden the amphitheater became, "Oh no, we're making money!"
Then, about that time, the DeBartolo thing came through and we were able to get that squared away so now have an extra source of income that we that we are doing our self because at this point we had to depend on the city for money to run the zoo. Then Ron Rosser, Don Zackert, [unintelligible] Boyles, Lee Allen Smith - there were about twenty of us that were sitting around one afternoon figuring out where we could get some money for the zoo, because the city used to be pretty hard on us. Every time we'd come up for something - spend a dime - they'd start screaming, you know, "It's been that way for eighty years now. Why would we want to change it? The animals are great in those pits we've got for them." So, we went ahead and got the one-eighth-cent tax put through and the people voted for it. People were really hungry for something to do in Oklahoma City if you'll think about it. I mean, this town is the home of fast foods and no place to go - no Bricktown. MAPS... the first MAPS program. But really the first MAPS program for Oklahoma City was the Oklahoma City one-eighth-cent tax for the zoo. Think about that now. We improved the city and the east side of Oklahoma City for the first time in the inception since we moved the zoo from Wheeler Park to here. We now become a destination showplace. Mr. Gaylord - old Mr. Gaylord - E.K., the town-builder. He was the one that pushed the Cowboy Hall of Fame and that was the first he, John Kirkpatrick, and about Harvey Everest... They... Jean Everest used to be on our board here too, years ago. And they were that ones that set down and made this east side, "We're going to bring it back." So the first MAPS started here, didn't it?
AS: Interesting!
BG: George Shirk was the Mayor at that point, and George had a great, burning desire to run the railroad tracks from the old Rock Island Station at down in Bricktown... that track is still there that comes out here and he had a dream to run a public transit system from the Rock Island all the way out to the Cowboy Hall of Fame. And that would make a half-moon for the future development of Oklahoma City.
Over a period of years, the Cowboy Hall of Fame gets its start. Admiral... before... Fred Darby. Fred comes in, and picks up... and I was involved in that, too... gun collections... I collect guns. And we were going to make the Forty-Fifth Museum, that used to be a National Guard armory that was abandoned. And we took that, and got the state to build in between the two buildings, and we developed what is now the Forty-Fifth Infantry Museum. So, at that point, the dreamers, the half-moon, from the Cowboy Hall of Fame, half-moon, back around to the south, which would be the Forty-Fifth Museum, with a train coming out here.
AS: And you're one of those dreamers.
BG: I was fortunate enough to be around the dreamers and therefore I could dream too. And so then... I can't remember what year. Probably back in the '60s. A group of us got together and got the City to give the Firefighters Museum - that land. And then we took that and started out with a real small... And I was on that board for thirty years, 'til I quit. And then we built the Firefighters Museum. Then we got the city to give us the property to the south of that, where the parking lot is. And then we got them to give us a little bit more and we were going to build a police museum there, and we have almost gotten that thing built four or five times and we still haven't put a brick in yet, but we're trying. So, this is part of that half-moon, huh?
Now, go ahead and ask me some more questions. I'm talking and getting away from the subject.
AS: No, this is great. What are some of the special events that you've been involved in over the years that are important to you?
BG: Probably the Hank Williams thing because I broke two barriers there: A - we got to serve alcohol on the zoo property and, B - we made eighty-five thousand dollars. And we established the fact that money could be made out of a WPA project that been fallow for thirty years. It was built in the '20s.
AS: You have a passion for history, and of course you know we're starting to open a Zoo history museum and getting geared up for that. What is your vision for that?
BG: The history museum? This would be something that I just think would be fantastic because everybody else has a museum, and we have more solid history of Oklahoma to put in our museum than any of the other ones, I think. So, if you'd have ever thought that that old train station, which used to be the bath house for the park would become a museum. If you'd told me that thirty years ago, I'd say. "Get out of here. You're crazy." Now can we take off two minutes and cut it off so I can have a Coca-Cola?
AS: (unintelligible)
BG: Thank you. Now, do I talk too much?
AS: No, you're doing great. This is fascinating. It's important to know all this information.
BG: The Oklahoma Historical Society did this same thing with Pat years ago. We go back now and talk about the Sinopoulos in Oklahoma history, and though I was born in Texas, my roots are Orlando, Oklahoma. That's my mother's country.
AS: So, how long does your family been in the zoo, and other entertainment industry around here?
BG: Are we back on?
AS: Are you ready?
BG: I'm ready. Pat's family came here in the 1800's. They emigrated from Sparta, Greece, and came to Saint Louis, and they worked at... Anheuser-Busch had a garden there. And I think it... I can't think of the name of the park, but it was an amusement park, and they worked for him. And they came here because they were tired of working for somebody else and came to Oklahoma City and put in the first amusement park west of the Mississippi River. It was called to Delmar Gardens and it opened in 1902. Down where the city market is right now you'll see a granite plaque down there. Pat and I put that in. And so that opened in 1902 and that was really, if you think about Oklahoma, when it was developed, the railroad came through from Kansas to Texas, and they had a couple of layout points. And the only reason that Oklahoma City's Oklahoma is because that Army needed a place to get in and out of on the railroad, so Reno Avenue directly connects to the north-south railroad, Santa Fe. And it goes due east, military precision from the Santa Fe, down Reno, to Fort Reno. And so that is Oklahoma Station then, wasn't it? And then, because it was kind of centrally located, better than Guthrie or Ardmore, but the land surveyors for the railroads had figured both Ardmore and Guthrie would be the two main points. But Oklahoma Station became the point, didn't it?
AS: So... go ahead.
BG: So, now we go back to the way that (unintelligible) the State was formed. You asked me a moment ago and I'm going to digress - Where did I get involved in all of this? There used to be a group of people. Jordan Reeves, who you probably don't know of, but Jordan Reeves was a gun collector and his collection is over at the Forty-Fifth Museum. It's probably one of the finest small-arms collections in America, and I helped appraise that. Put it in the Forty-Fifth Museum. And Jordan and I were real good friends. And about once a month in Jordan Reeves gun area, in his home - the garage - he just took the whole garage and made it into an absolutely unbelievably historic collection of military weapons. And once a month we'd meet over there. And it would be Jack Kahn, who was an early day founder here. It... From time-to-time Ralph Neely the son-in-law of E.K. Gaylord. Himie Bass from up in Enid. Doctor Fisher up at OSU - historian. The history professor at OU. And this was a group of people that used to get together and we'd talk about Oklahoma history. And I'd always been a history buff but I really did get into it and I wish I had a tape recording of some of the things that we used to talk about because they were here when it happened. And I could only go back to when what my father-in-law used to say. So we'd sit and hour-after-hour have a little bit of Jack Daniels and we'd sit and talk about Oklahoma History. The last major naval battle in the Civil War was fought in Oklahoma, did you know that? Yeah. General Stand Watie sunk a Union supply boat going to Fort Gibson. That's the last naval battle of the Civil War. That's in the history book, too. In...Now that... Six of us went down there one day and spent four days - we went down there only for one day but we spent four days trying to find out exactly where that... he had... Stand Watie had placed his cannons to sink that boat. So anyway, history I dearly love.
AS: I can tell.
BG: And so then, I had the privilege of sitting with all these elderly gentlemen when they would talk about this and that and what went on during the civil war and it intrigued me, so I just kind of put it up in my head, and then there's a group here called the Oklahoma Posse for history. Seventy percent of the people who belong are professional historians and thirty percent are laymen. And I've belonged to that for years so. Good story. Windmills. You wouldn't think of anything in the way of windmills. You know, they're here. We take them for granted. There was a guy came in here one day that was a professor, one of the visiting people that used to make speeches for us. And he talked about the America... the West... the American West and the new element of the American West and the windmill. And he talked for an hour and a half. When he got through, I'm thinking, "I like windmills." I happened to be in Morocco fifteen years ago. I was having dinner with the Minister of Agriculture. This was a wine-related thing and then we were just discussing cultures, etcetera. And we were talking about windmills, and this guy that perked up like somebody had hit him with a bolt of lightning. He says, "What's this man's name?" I said, "I don't know. I'll have to go find out." And I found out he was teaching down at Baylor University in Texas, so he got a free ride over and they came up with building an expensive irrigation system in Morocco. They both made money off... I didn't do anything other than the fact that I helped somebody and it didn't cost anything, didn't I?
AS: That's good!
BG: Now, let's go back to the... can I quit for a minute?
AS: You're fine, yeah.
BG: Thank you. Now, what else do we do from here?
AS: Well, I'd like to talk about Zoo Directors for a minute, because you have seen a number of Zoo Directors.
BG: Now I'm... I'm often the... Yep, I'm supposed to be fair to the Zoo.
AS: Oh, that's alright. Kind of think about the Zoo Directors that you've known or worked with and what they brought to the Zoo in your opinion.
BG: Zoo Directors, starting with Admiral Kirkpatrick, the founder. Gene Everest, another founder. Martha Jo Stern. Roger Givens, developer.
AS: And these are all in the Society.
BG: This is the Society now. I guess we're going back to, what, the late '60s, early '70s huh? And, this was a group of people that really wanted to... they really liked animals. I mean it wasn't a deal like there's so many organizations, "Oh, I belong in..." "Well, what do you do?" "Well, we... whatever... feed the children... whatever." And people contributed to it. But these people really had a great and sincere desire to improve our animal collection, number one, and to make Oklahoma City a number one zoo destination point. Which is kind of crazy because at that point we were out in the boondocks weren't we? In everything, not just the Zoo. And so those are the people that really set up the first go 'round and probably Ron Rosser would be... I'm going to say that that was the first generation this old group. And now we're going to take the second generation, and that would have been Ron Rosser, number one, number one, number one, no one will deny that. He was a dreamer, and he worked at it, after he lost his son - this building is named after. And so, by far, him. Then, right along with that, the Zackerts, Don Zackert, Phillip Boyle... I was off the Zoo Trust for... after I left... let's see... we had just hired... I can't remember the years... I'm getting kind of... it's called eighty-fourish, or eighty-threeish, whatever. Better make it sixtyish. Memory. Ron Rosser would probably be the man. Same generation. The other generation we're in now, in my opinion. And we've got some good people now. That intermediate group: Don Zackert's, the old guard group, the second generation. They're still all involved. I say still - most of them. Third generation would be Christian McAuliffe, that group. And they have done an absolutely fantastic, fantastic, fantastic job. Going back to the Society, we didn't have a Director in those days. And Martha Jo, ran it all out of the back yard. And then after Martha Jo, we hired... She just lost her husband the other day and at Martha Jo's funeral I ran into her and said "Come on back into the group." Memory, bad. First...she was our first paid director for the Society. When she left, the guy from the Zoological Society took over and that's about when I quit.
AS: Patrick
BG: Patrick Alexander! That's right.
AS: Okay, you're getting into my generation now, I know what you're talking about.
BG: But before Patrick... what was this girl... Charlene Brannon. Charlene Brannon. There we go. She did a fantastic job. And then she left, and then...
AS: Alexander.
BG: Yeah, came on board. In my opinion I don't think he did a very good job. You can say that and if you want to sue me that's fine too. I could care less. Then we were kind of without major leadership over the Society for a period of about four of five years, when I came back on the Trust. When I came back to the Trust in - seven years ago, eight years ago - we were kind of in the throes of not having direction at that level, and unfortunately, we used to work as one group - I mean the Society and the Zoo Trust - you couldn't tell... We used to do our financial meetings at the Society and the Zoo Trust said, "Yeah, whatever you guys say, we'll go do." and then pretty soon it got kind of, "This is my territory and this is your territory." and during the Castro Administration with that lady I can't remember her name. She didn't do a very good job. They kind of went this way. And now, for the first time, we were able to bring that back together. When Bob Hammock was President of the Society, we were at the height of the division between the Zoo group and the Society group. Am I talking too much?
AS: Hmm-umm.
BG: We were able to settle that up about three or four years ago when both of these people left us: Castro and... I can't remember the lady's name.
AS: Lana. Lana Ivy.
BG: Yeah. She's over at Dean McGee Institute. I hope she does as good...whatever. You be nice now. You can take that out. So anyway, when we pulled this back together, Hammock was president of the Society. It's when we started trying to, "Let's pull this together. And let's hire, when Bert leaves..." Burt quit. And Bert quit over this division between what is the Society and what is the Zoo. And then we were fortunate to get this marriage back together again. And I think right now probably we're stronger today or as strong today as we were under Martha Jo.
AS: Really.
BG: Mm-hmm.
AS: So you think we're headed in the right direction.
BG: Oh, there's no doubt about it. It just tickles me to death. Because everybody that's in it right now really wants the Zoo to succeed, not so much because it's, "I did it," or "We need it," but, we feel like we're entitled to it and we're willing to work for it. And that you don't find too often. A lot of people think they're entitled but they don't want to work. And so this younger group we've got right now are really passionate in their desires to proceed.
AS: So you've seen a lot of changes. But what are some things that you'd still like to see happen in this area, this entertainment district?
BG: A: my lifelong desire - and I've been working on this ever since I came back to the Trust, eight years ago, seven years ago, whenever - down at this point, right to the east of the Zoo, there's acreage that is a city park. And it's kind of neutralized at this point and we finally got a gate across it because people were messing that up and I think the Zoo is now entitled to use that land and at one point I wanted to put the western exhibit - I wasn't on the Board or on the Trustees then - on that side. Then we could have our railroad go over there. And then we used to have a - I was on the Board of Directors the Bank when we foreclosed on Springlake. And when we got through giving all that stuff away I managed to
stick the - pardon me - I managed to acquire that old tram that we used to have tied in here that went up in the air. And I wanted to take that clear across the lake except that the insurance company said, "No."
AS: Oh, the Sky Ride?
BG: Yes. Wouldn't that have been fantastic?
AS: Wow.
BG: And then all... the south end down here of the lake, I'd like to have taken the railroad around to that. Now that's just a dream. We'll get to that ultimately, too. Believe me.
AS: What do you think it is about your personality or maybe you're raising that you have been on all these boards? Not everybody in their life does that and you have just consistently...
BG: I am the most fortunate individual you'll ever meet. And I say that to this extent: I've been in more businesses, and - and successful, but I've gone broke a couple of times too, which makes it better, because the taste of victory is twice as good when you've lost a couple of times, isn't it? You know, and let's face it, in this country it's feast or famine. You either eat beans and weenies or you eat steak, one of the other. And if you're real poor, it's just beans. And that's the American Dream, though, isn't it? I want to give my children what I didn't have. So anyway, going back, I've been in the hotel business at the Biltmore Hotel. I was on the Board of Directors of that. I was on the Board of Directors of Midwest Enterprise Company, which was the company that controlled the theaters in downtown, with the exception of the Criterion, in the center. The first major parking lot in Oklahoma City was Carport, 675 cars, and we owned that ground. And we used to be major property owners in downtown Oklahoma City until urban renewal came along. So, I've done a little of everything. Let's see I've been on... I was on the MAPS commission for six years. The first, second... I always say the seconds MAPS commission because our Zoo was the first MAPS commission. We don't give us credit for that but it's true. And I've enjoyed it. I love this city. We have a good city. We have good people. And the thing I love about this city is the wealth of this city has never been concentrated in one single hand and therefore we've kind of created a series of dynasties that prevail. A man can come to this town, in my opinion, do better here as an individual that any other small town - I use the word small town [unintelligible] in the country. I'm nuts about this whole thing. I mean this... this has got it. Texas used to have it - we got it.
AS: I love your passion for it.
BG: Well it's true. And you take what Devon's doing right now... By the way, the... Pat's family opened up the Midwest building in 1930, and that's in the dead center of where Devon Tower is going to be!
AS: Wow!
BG: So, here we go back to generations and look how we're growing. The next major move will be from Main Street, I call it, to the river. Shore to Shore, whatever we call that now. And that's going to be your next major development in Oklahoma City. And the only thing we're...
AS: How do you think this has all affected your grandchildren?
BG: My grandchildren are all over the country. There are none of them here, unfortunately. Devil Baby may come back, I hope. Devil Baby's my youngest grandson.
AS: Oh.
BG: How he got the name. We were in bed one night, my wife, the baby, and I. He's still in diapers. We were watching television. He starts acting up and I start chewing him out and I said, "You understand that?" "Yeah." And I said, "No you don't say 'Yeah,' You say 'Yes, sir.'" I finally got him to say "Yes, sir." About three minutes later he looked over at his Grandmother and he says, "Honey Bear, would you do me a favor?" And she said, "Yes Grant. What do you want?" He said, "If when you change my diaper I'm going to run away from home." So I started calling him DB, Devil Baby.
AS: Wow!
BG: You can cut that out, too.
AS: Character at a young age.
BG: So I would love to see him come back. But even if I don't this city has got... I'm just... It's been good to me. It's been good to my family for a hundred years.
AS: Well, we just have a few minutes left. I have one more question and them anything that you want to add.
BG: I talk too much, go ahead.
AS: I don't want to gloss over your military background. Could you explain what you did in the military?
BG: I went in the first time. Graduated from [unintelligible] Military Academy. Became a Second Lieutenant. Went to the Philippine Scouts. The new scouts. Now the old scouts were the heroes. The new scouts were kind of scavengers. According to the history book. I'm reading a book on that right now. I didn't know we were that lousy. But anyway, the Philippine Scouts were founded in 1901, when we occupied the Philippines - the Americans. And they had a very similar situation in the Philippines that the American army had in the Indian wars in as much as there were umpteen different tribes, different cultures, different languages. And we developed the Cherokee Scouts, the Apache Scouts, the this, that, and the other Scouts. Tailored each one to work with that group in certain areas. Well the same guys that fought the Indian wars were in the Philippines, you know, Arthur MacArthur, Douglas MacArthur's father and that group were all great heroes in the Indian wars. So they founded the Philippine Scouts with the idea we'll take Ilocanos and we'll have Ilocano Scouts and we'll have Pangasinan Scouts and, same thing. And then when MacArthur got pretty much cashiered out of the American Army in 1934-35, he went to the Philippines to develop the Army. And then it developed into four regiments and they were all wiped out in Bataan and Corregidor and they are the Scouts. Now in 1944, the government came in and said we need MacArthur again, gets him to pass a deal that says we're going to set up the new Scouts. So the new Scouts were formed in 1944 and they were dissolved in 1949. I happened to be a new Scout. When you look at conventions, two I've been to, the old Scouts, you know, they're all scarred up, and 500 medals and this, that, and the other, and so on and so... and the new Scouts, we're just there. And so I served in the Philippine Scouts. I got hurt in 1947, and I had a regular Army commission working, and I got washed out, physical, and came home, and went to SMU. I stayed out of
the Army until 1950. In 1950 Jul... August of 1950, I got a phone call on day, Department of the Army Career Management, Colonel Ernest Dale Philippi. That's how much I remember. "You will report to Fort (unintelligible) take a physical, you will fail it. You'll report to Fort Sill on Sunday." "But if I fail it how can I report?" "Can you just do what I'm telling you?" "Yes, Sir." I did. And I didn't get out for two years. So, I came out the second time, April, I believe, '52. Military career's not much. I've been there and that's about all.
AS: Yeah. Well...
BG: But I enjoyed it. I was very fortunately the second time, was on the staff of (unintelligible) infantry schools as an instructor. And then, I did intelligence work, and I kind of got back into that the second time. I started out as an instructor and I ended up running the legal department for the Second Division... Second Regiment. (unintelligible)
AS: So when did you know you were meant to go into business, then?
BG: I married my wife in December, 1947. Came home in July, married her. Had a restaurant. Going to school in Dallas. And in 1948 my father-in-law was an elderly gentleman because remember, he was over sixty-five when my mother... when my wife was born. And he never travelled. One morning at our apartment in Dallas the door knock and he says, "I'm here." And I think, "What are you doing here? Come on in." And he said, "I'm leaving on the one o'clock plane to go back up - train." Train. He didn't like airplanes. And, "I'm leaving on the one o'clock train to go back to Oklahoma City and I want a Yes or No answer out of you now." "Okay, for what?" "Well, I have two daughters, one married to you and one married to somebody else I don't like him. We had the family business, and I want you to get rid of everything you've got here and move up to Oklahoma City and understudy me. And you've got an hour to make up your mind." In the meantime my wife fixed coffee. And I go in the kitchen to visit with her but the kitchen wasn't very big and he could hear everything we said. She said, "Well, I'm pregnant and maybe that's a good idea. And so....
AS: Man!
BG: It's called nesting I believe we call it, don't we? So, I came up here. So, I had a restaurant and I had a Jenny's Motor Service in Dallas, and sold out, came up here. Then I understudied opened up Pat's Fashion Shop in 1949, the ladies ready-to-wear store on Main Street. As a matter of fact B.C. Clark and myself... Buddy Rogers... there's about five Main Street merchants left back in the '50s alive today. I'm one of them.
AS: Huh! All because of a very life-changing day.
BG: So, then, when I came up here. Put in the dress shop, then I got into the parking lot business. That was inside car parking storage. I had one down where the Liberty Bank building is right now on Main Street and the other one is where the Memorial Tree is on Fifth and Robinson where the bombing was. And if you go look at that tree on the north side you'll see somebody was getting ready to cut it out. Had the bombing not taken place that tree wouldn't be here right now. So then, Biltmore hotel, I was on the board of that when we sold the Biltmore hotel to the Sheridan... yeah, Sheridan group. Then I've done Lee Bolt Gambulos Construction Company. I've done... on the board of directors of a bank. You know, just... I've just tried to make a living.
AS: You've done a lot.
BG: I've had fun. It's never work when you enjoy what you're doing. When you have to beat yourself to go to work that's not good.
AS: Well, Byron...
BG: I've been so lucky to be able... How many people get afforded the privilege of pioneering a liquor industry? Pioneering parking in Oklahoma City? People back when we opened up those parking lots. There wasn't any downtown... That's what killed downtown - no parking.
AS: Still a problem.
BG: Go back and look at the MAPS record every time they say we're going to do something I say, "What about parking?" Until finally somebody said, "Shut up." Now, is that it?
AS: Well, we are about out of time, but I just...
BG: I talk too much, go ahead.
AS: No, that's good. I'm glad you did. I've learned so much. Any final Zoo thoughts that you want to get in before we finish?
BG: I wasn't one that thought that when we do the elephant exhibits at this point, because I knew that we were going into a financial crisis all over the country. And to spend twenty-three million dollars scared me to death. And to spend twelve million dollars for the elephant exhibit let us do it quick. And now, as soon as that's finished then I think we should continue with the Asian exhibit and so I look forward to... I've only got one more year on the Trust or one and a half, whatever, and I'm over. At eighty-three it's time for me to quit and let younger people take... get involved. But the museum would be very important to me, finishing the animal... the rest of the Asian exhibit would be important to me. Hotel... We'll never build this hotel on the point across over here... I got off that subject a minute ago. I want to put that hotel right there. For two reasons: A - it services the Zoo, B - it would service the Cowboy... Baseball... Softball, and three - it would service the casino. Most of the people that I talk with don't want to do that they want to build it... casino... hotel... build the hotel over the casino. So, that I would like to see happen to because then you could bring your family in, stay for two or three days, and you could stay just right in this entertainment district, couldn't you?
AS: Right
BG: I mean, you have golf. Everything you can think of. So, the future development of the east side would probably be a primary service. Immediate service: let's get our animal exhibit, the rest of the Asian exhibit. Then, I look forward to someday - I don't think I'll be around but somebody will - take the property on the east side of that lake and we're going to put in something over there that's going to just be absolutely like San Diego only you don't have to drive twenty miles to go to the downtown zoo the go through the... the other zoo. We'll all have it here. That's my dream.
AS: Wonderful. Thank you Byron so much for your interview, and your time.
BG: My pleasure.