Description:
Sherri Williams and Lawrence Naff talk about life in Northeast Oklahoma City.
Transcript:
Interview Subjects: Sherri Williams and Lawrence Naff
Interviewer: Tracy Floreani
Tracy Floreani: Ok, just ignore this. So, but for the record, on the recording, we like to have your full names and have you spell them.
Sherri Williams: Sherri Denise Williams. S-H-E-R-R-I. Denise. D-E-N-I-S-E. Williams.
TF: Okay.
Lawrence Naff: Lawrence Naff. L-A-W-R-E-N-C-E N-A-F-F.
TF: Thank you. Um, so, uh, have you both, your mother and son, and um are you originally from Oklahoma City, Sherri?
SW: Yes.
TF: Okay. And so you grew up here as well?
LN: That’s correct.
TF: Okay, so, um. Did your, uh, do you remember- do you know what brought your family to Oklahoma City?
SW: Well, my parents- my parents- I’m not quite sure what brought them here, but my father is originally from Mississippi, but he was a little kid.
TF: Okay.
SW: But he came from Arcadia or Luther area.
TF: Oh, okay.
SW: Right. And just opportunity, job opportunities I would- I would assume.
TF: So they were already settled here when you were born?
SW: Yes.
TF: Okay. And what year were you born?
SW: ‘55.
TF: Okay. And what are the, uh, what neighborhood did you grow up in?
SW: I grew up-
TF: Were you in one neighborhood?
SW: Yes, I grew up in Creston Hills from the- my elementary school years, most of those. And then, I moved to Park Estates which is near, ya know North of, uh, 36th and uh, between Kelly and-
LN: Prospect.
SW: Prospect, yeah.
TF: And, which schools did you attend?
SW: Okay, Creston Hill’s Elementary and Long Fellow for one year and then Northeast High School.
TF: Okay.
SW: Mhmm. It started off as a s-seven through twelve and then went to Harding for two years with the integration…
TF: Right.
SW: And then we came back to North East for our- for the last three years.
TF: Okay, so that’s a lot of moving around.
SW: Yes.
TF: Yeah.
SW: It wasn’t bad. But we- we uh, did move schools, ya know, hom--
TF: So, you got-
SW: Home-Home was--
TF: Did you--
SW: ...steady so that- that helped.
TF: That’s good. So, um, you were bussed over to Harding?
SW: I’m sorry?
TF: Were you bussed-
SW: Yes, we were bussed to Harding. Yes.
TF: Do you remember much about that experience?
[pause]
SW: Not too much. I do- I remember it, but it was non-eventful. We had the first, I remember the very first day of school, the bus didn’t come so the students decided we would just walk to school. So we walked all the way from-
TF: Wow.
SW: -from where we were, and- and collected, and walked down 36th street all the way to Shartel and south to- to the school.
TF: Do you remember about how big a group of kids it was?
SW: It was probably about 30- at least 30, that I remember.
TF: It sounds like it almost looked like a spontaneous demonstration.
SW: [laughs]
TF: [laughs] A march to school.
SW: [laughing] Yeah, we walked- we walked to school.
TF: Wow.
SW: And I don’t know, I don’t know well our parents were probab-probably already at work, and we just decided we would just walk, and we did.
TF: Wow. So we’ll focus a little bit on your childhood experience and then get into your childhood and your raising a kid in Oklahoma City, um... what are the places you remember most about the neighborhoods that you spent time in as a kid?
SW: Well, in Creston Hills, we have some very, very wonderful experiences that elementary school itself was like an epic-epicenter for, uh, activities in the summertime, particularly, we had the swimming pool. We had the summer program where there were kids from not Jesse Elementary. Not just elementary school but all ages were there in the summertime doing arts and crafts, learning different things. I remember making like a doll, hand-stitching, paper mache,
making maracas out of light bulbs and paper mache, and- and in the evening at the end of the- the school- summer term, there were- there was- there was actually an amphitheatre in the back of the school. So, the trees were bordered as a backdrop to the stage for the amphitheater, and it was set down low. And as people today will go to concerts- outdoor concerts, that’s the way it was. We had blankets, picnic type setting, family setting, families-
[TF coughs]
SW: -who would park along the street and some that were close enough would just walk with their blankets and little snacks. And we would wait until the sun went down, ‘till right at the sunset, ya know, right at the dusk. And then the lights would come on [TF coughs] and we would see different performances that the children would put on that they learned during the summer time. It was pretty nice.
TF: Uh, so it was like a children doing theatre camp almost.
SW: Exactly.
TF: Do you know, was it the public school system that offered that summer programming? Or who was behind it?
SW: I have no idea, but it was a public school. I’m not really sure and that’s one thing I think about all the different things that we had that was so rich… that enriched us. That I know that is lacking today. I think it would be really great if there were programs like that.
TF: And it was a neighborhood school so y’all could walk there…
SW: Absolutely.
TF: And it’s not there anymore? Is the school there?
SW: It’s- It’s boarded up.
TF: Is it? So the building’s still there, it’s just not in use?
SW: So the building was still there. As a matter of fact, I saw that it was… identified as a historical sight…
TF: Hm.
SW: ....and a few years ago I drove by to see if it- how it looked and I saw it boarded up and pain- ya know, boarded up windows, and my heart kinda sank.
TF: Mhmm, yeah.
SW: And the trees were gone and I’ve- I’ve just hadn’t been over there in such a long time. I moved there in the 5th- from that area in the 5th grade.
TF: Right.
SW: Uh huh.
TF: So now that natural amphitheatre would be gone, if the trees were gone?
SW: I’d just have- I’d just have to go back and look again. Because cannot believe that it was gone. It was such a beautiful place. And… to see it boarded up, it was- it was kinda sad to see that. But we had just, ya know, great schools, great teachers, and kind of- kind of sad to think that it’s not there serving the community.
TF: Well, and it sounds like you had good experiences at other schools, but I feel like all of us have that school that’s the school of our heart in-
SW: Yes.
TF: -our memories. It sounds like this was the school of your heart.
SW: Right.
TF: [chuckles]
SW: Well my high school was also-
TF: Was it?
SW: -the school of my heart too.
TF: Yeah, what was it like?
SW: Northeast High School. Fantastic, outstanding school. We… I finally landed in a musical group that was part of a performing, uh, show group pretty much called the Viking Singers. And during my senior year we actually went to the Bahamas as- it was probably about sixteen of us along with our teachers and sponsor. Uh, [Carole Hardeman?] was our music teacher and uh,
we- we just had a wonderful, wonderful experience just doing the things that we did. We actually performed songs by [chuckles] the Fifty Mention, and a little bit of Earth- Earth- not Earth, Wind, and Fire but some of their contemporary- con- contemporary thing. Our teacher loved the Fifty Mentions, but we finally got to some other fun things that we did, as well.
TF: Do you remember the rehearsal hall where you all practiced?
SW: Oh yeah we, uh, in the music room it was-
TF: Yeah what did that room feel like?
SW: -We actually, wait a minute, we actually performed Jesus Christ Superstar.
TF: Oh, really [chuckles] nice.
SW: Someone from- Someone from New York, Broadway, who actually was part of the Jesus Christ Superstar came and we- we had a full production, full of costumes. We actually had students from other schools come in. I remember John Marshall comin’ over, bussed over to see our performance. We had the stage crew, the costumes, the vocals, was just fantastic.
TF: This would have been really cutting edge for a highschool to do that at that time.
SW: Exactly...
TF: This was in the 70s.
SW: ...right ‘72.
TF: Mhmm.
SW: 1972.
TF: That’s amazing. You all probably felt pretty lucky?
SW: We were. [TF chuckles] We just had a great time. Yes, we felt lucky but we- we were just excited about it. Mhmm. Mhmm.
TF: Yeah, do you remember what that rehearsal hall felt like? Was there always a lot of energy in there?
SW: Always.
TF: Yeah.
SW: And we were very attentive to direction. Very attentive to the direction from the director and our- our music teacher as well. We had a lot of talent. The people from the band worked the oster- uh, orchestra pit, pretty much, and we had a pianist that was very good as well, [Reginald Thomas?].
TF: Did you all hang out in the, um, music room when you weren’t in practice like was that your hang out space or were there other places in the school that you hung out with your friends?
SW: Well, just lunch was the only time we really hung out, but as far as a cluster of our friends we were mostly- we did travel different places to do our performances so… we performed at banks, different places to raise money to go to the Bahamas.
TF: Was um, uh [chuckles] sorry, I just lost my train of thought. What about weekends and after school, where’d you all hang out?
SW: Weekends, after school… Weekends, probably at each other- a neighbor’s home. It woudn’t so much, ya know, some of the neighbors were my class or we were just neighborhood kids we would hang- hang out at different- different one’s homes. Course we also had church choir, our choir we would hang out with the choir. So, we had that opportunity, as well.
TF: Which church did you go to back then?
SW: St. John Missionary Baptist Church. It was almost second in Phillip’s at the time.
TF: And it’s...Okay.
SW: Yeah.
TF: What do you remember about that space?
SW: Oh, wow! I loved the- the uh- the building because there was a balcony. And I cannot- and I just cannot believe, but I don’t think we had air-conditioning so that we had to raise the windows to get the breeze in. But we had the balcony and the lower section. No one that was a teenager or young person would ever want to sit down below. We always wanted to sit in the balcony. [laughing] So we would be so close to the action. So, ya know, we could maybe pass notes or whatever. But- but it was -it -it’s a lot of fun memories there, as well.
TF: It would have been hotter in the balcony cause it’s higher up. You don’t remember being hot?
SW: No, never. I don’t know why. I don’t know if you just acclimate to it, but the windows there was a nice breeze. I think there were a lot of trees outside the stained glass windows, so it didn’t seem like it was very hot. And I don’t know if, ya know, I- I can’t believe that there were… that it was no A.C. because I know how hot I get now [laughing].
TF: [Laughing]
SW: But, they may have gotten it retrofitted later but there- there was no A.C. that I can remember.
TF: Were there parks that you played in in the neighborhoods either as a teenager or a little kid or?
SW: Well, I remember going to Creston- Creston Hill’s Park particularly in the summer time they had- or even after school they had swings and the- the uh, merry-go-round, the… a whole lot of different equipment out there. Play- we played a game- ya know we played kickball, but we also played a game called bombers which is- was a very simple game. We would- we would play that at home. Also, we would play it at school where you just kinda bounce the ball, and they had to catch it. So like tennis but it was like a ball instead.
TF: [chuckles] Called bombers.
SW: Yeah, uh [chuckles] called bombers.
TF: [chuckles]
SW: [Laughs]
TF: What about, um, public libraries or shops, were there any that you went to regularly?
SW: Well, I was just tellin’ someone there was something that I think government- my parents- well my parents- my father worked at Tinker- uh, it was an area called, uh, GEX, Government Exchange. I think it was like the precursor to what you would call a Walmart now. They had- had the grocery section, appliances, music section, toy section, and it was really, really big. Right
now, on- I think it’s Old Paris Flea Market is where that location is now but that was- used to be called GEX and you had to show your I.D. It was like Sam’s pretty much uh- and now that was as far as family shoppin, uh, of course we shopped downtown. Had to pay to- pay for parking, and a guy would take your car up to park, and then we would go- go walking- ya know, walking with our- our parents.
TF: Do you remember any of the stores you went to for school clothes and things like that downtown?
SW: I cannot really remember, honestly. I remember going to Streets. That’s one store I remember. Rothschild’s um- and I know my mother used to go to this store called Earl’s. There was a John A. Brown- John A. Brown. Yeah, I remember John A. Brown.
TF: Did your family have any favorite restaurants in the neighborhood?
SW: No, we usually ate at home.
TF: Cooked at home?
SW: Uh huh.
TF: What about movies? Were you allowed to go to movies when you were a teenager?
SW: Yes.
TF: Where’d you go?
SW: Well, as a little kid we went to the Jewel Theatre. But- then the Bison on 23rd. And that was probably the only two areas that I can remember as a kid.
TF: Do you remember a movie that you were really excited about, when it came out?
SW: ...Yes. I’m thinking. [sigh] [pause] I- ya know I can’t remember the name of it but it was a scary movie. But there was another movie that had I think the Ike and Tina Turner Review. I went with my older cousins, ya know. And that’s about the only thing I can really remember.
TF: And what year was it that your musical ensemble went overseas?
SW: To the Bahamas? 7-
TF: Yeah.
SW: ‘73.
TF: What was it like to leave the United States?
SW: [pause] I think that might have been my first flight. It was, it was just really, really nice and special. We knew it was an honor to go and it was an honor to- to be a part of it. We had a lot of fun, we met a lot of- w-we actually performed at a lot of the school’s elementaries and middle school and high school. We actually felt like- we felt really good because we were really warmly received.
TF: Yeah.
SW: Mhmm.
TF: How long were you there? A couple weeks?
SW: One week.
TF: One week?
SW: One week, yes.
TF: Do you remember what it felt like when you got back to Oklahoma City?
SW: [Laughs] Yes, we were just so- we were so very excited just- just to think that we had the honor to- to go...and one thing I remember thinking because it was so funny, one of- one of our- one or two of our students came back with accents [laughing].
TF: [Laughing] After a week.
SW: [Laughing] And we just rolled our eyes, but I said one thing I’m gonna make sure not to talk about it because I know a lot of people didn’t- would’ve loved to go, but I would not want to just- if someone asked me about it, I would tell them about it. But I was very conscious and- and cautious about that, ya know.
TF: That’s interesting.
SW: Mhmm.
TF: Yeah, cause you all were so proud to go but you didn’t wanna brag.
SW: Right, right.
TF: Do you know if the local news covered it?
SW: I do not know. [Sighs] I do not know.
TF: Hmm. I’ll have to look at the newspapers.
SW: Yeah.
TF: So, where were you living when Lawrence was born?
SW: Where I- wh- where…
TF: In what- what neighborhood were you living in when he was born? Were you here in Oklahoma City?
SW: Yes, here in Oklahoma City. Yes, we were here in Oklahoma City, and, um…. Yeah, I was here in Oklahoma City.
TF: Yeah.
SW: O- O- On the Northeast side. I’m trying to remember the …
TF: Remember where you were living exactly…
SW: Yeah, right. Yeah, in Park Estates.
TF: In Park Estates?
SW: In Park Estates, yes.
TF: [To Lawrence] Do you remember growing up in Park Estates?
LN: I didn’t grow up there.
TF: Oh, you didn’t?
LN: No, that’s where I was born but..
TF: Ok, where did y’all live by then?
LN: ...by the time I was able to have memory, then mother moved in 1989...
TF: ….Okay. Where did you move?....
LN: To Wildwood Hills.
TF: Okay.
LN: Is that right?
SW: Mhmm.
LN: 1989. Right?
TF: So..
LN: February, right?
SW: Mhmm.
TF: You were born in what year?
LN: 1986.
TF: Okay, so you were just like a little toddler when you moved.
LN: Mhmm.
TF: So, what- what- what did it feel like as a neighborhood to grow up in Wildwood Hills?
LN: Well, it was pretty much the way it is now, pretty quiet. There were-were kids around my age across the street. Uh, down the street there were a few kids from the school. I went to…. Initially, I went to a school located just in the neighborhood called Learner’s Academy. It was a- was a pre- like early start…
SW: Mhmm.
LN: So before I was old enough to be in preschool, I went there, and that’s where you learn basic skills, ya know, the colors, spelling, math. They would teach all- all of those things there, and I remember the peacocks being there [TF laughs]. There were wild peacocks that live in the neighborhood and there were lots of them in the back of that school. I figured that they came from the school, but later I learned that they actually came from someone that owned land nearby. And they just spread throughout the neighborhood.
TF: When they- When they make their call it can be really alarming. Do you remember being- how you reacted to that as a kid?
LN: No, I never- I don’t remember ever hearing them actually.
TF: Oh, okay. [Chuckles]
LN: I don’t remember seeing them actually get run over although my mother says she’s seen them..
TF: Oh, really?
LN: ...on the road dead a few times.
TF: How many were there?
LN: There are still…
TF: Are there still some?
LN: Yeah, there’s many…
TF: Descendants [Chuckles].
LN: Yeah, if you go now, I actually live in the neighborhood now. If you go now, you’ll see, in the springtime, maybe about 20 of them in just one trip if you go down a certain road.
TF: Wow, I’ve never been there the right type of day I guess. I know there were some over in- near Warr Acres that are- until recently. But, and that was wild so…
LN: I went there first, and then went to St. John Missionary Baptist Church. They have a W.E.K Jackson… [Towards SW]
SW: W.K. Jackson.
LN: W.K. Jackson Educational Center and that’s a private elementary school…
TF: Okay.
LN: ...located inside the church. I went there for preschool. Then I went to Milwood for Kindergarten all the way until 6th grade.
TF: Was that a good experience?
LN: By the most part, I don’t know, it was mixed. I had trouble fitting in with the kids the whole time. And… uh… I did learn a lot about Black History, though. That was- I’m not sure if you’re familiar but Milwood is an independent public school district, and it serves very specific neighborhood that are really close by: Wildwood, uh, I think Park Estates North, and some parts- like maybe a block or two of Park Estates South, and most of Wildwood Hills.
TF: Mhmm.
LN: So, the- the school- I remember there was- there was like 100 percent African American students all the way throughout the school and so they focused on black history and I learned a lot of things that I’ve learned now that I wouldn’t have learned about black history had I gone to other schools.
TF: Yeah. So, did you appreciate it at the time? Or was it more like in retrospect do you really appreciate that curriculum?
LN: Um, I appreciate it in retrospect, at the time it wasn’t like a nuisance or anything, but it was just what you were learning.
TF: Yeah. You didn’t know it was unusual probably…
LN: Right I didn’t know it was omitted from other school curriculums.
TF: Yeah, and where’d you go to high school?
LN: I went to high school at Northeast.
TF: And, so, was it the same building at that point, so same old- same building, and could you hear your mother’s voice still resonating in the halls?
LN: [Chuckles]
TF: [Laughs]
LN: For three years, I went to Classen in between that in middle school…
TF: Okay.
LN: ...and, that was a great experience there. I’m glad I went there. My mother cares a lot about my education, so once she saw that I wasn’t getting challenged at Millwood, she moved me over to- moved me over to Classen where I would have opportunities to even learn about, uh, performing arts. It’s a performing arts school and I was take- taking piano at the time. And I was there as a piano major for a few years.
TF: And what- what instigated the move from Classen back to Northeast?
LN: They were changing principals-
TF: Oh, okay.
LN: -and they also changed some things with the bus. The bus was a big problem. The bus wouldn’t come to our neighborhood anymore where I could walk down the street and take a bus to school. Mother would have to take me and that would be very inconvenient from the way- from where she works compared to where the school is…
TF: Mhmm.
LN: ...On top of that, the principal just came in and she wanted to really show that she was in charge so she put in place some policy where it would be very easy for you to become expelled just from tardiness.
TF: Wow.
LN: [To SW] Do you recall that?
SW: No.
[LN and TF laugh]
SW: But, I remember moving.
LN: Yeah, so, um, having this problem, uh, it’s all very early on maybe I was there for a week or two when that semester started, and then started, uh, making some moves to get- to get over to Northeast. It’s closer to the house, mother went there, it was a good school and, um, ya know, her band teacher’s still there.
TF: So you got to have some music education there?
LN: I actually didn’t study music there…
TF: Oh, no?
LN: That is- That’s not a performing arts school. I was doing piano at Classen. They didn’t have piano at Northeast…
TF: Oh, okay.
LN: … So, uh, that school focused on health sciences and engineering. So, I was on the Health Sciences track.
TF: Oh, so this was during the cluster system- what they call the cluster system at the schools?
SW: I don’t- I think- no- I think it was- I don’t think it was considered cluster..
TF: Oh, okay.
SW: I think cluster was a little earlier, during my time.
TF: Was it? Okay, yeah. Where they were specializing.
SW: Well, they were definitely specializing so they…
LN: Called magnet school.
TF: Now it’s magnet, yeah.
[Group muttering in agreeance]
TF: That’s right. That’s a term they started using in the 80s.
SW: Oh, good.
TF: So did you ever live outside of Oklahoma City?
SW: Just, no. Not- not before- just a short time-
TF: Yeah.
SW: -with my job, but other than that no.
TF: So you knew you wanted to stay here and raise your family here?
SW: Absolutely.
TF: Yeah, what is it about raising a kid in Oklahoma City that- that drew you to- or was it just like something you didn’t think about?
SW: Well, it was just- it was just home. And, having your support system, family here. Um. And it was definitely before Lawrence was born. And, just keeping up with Lawrence’s many interests. I knew I had to have support- solid support system too. So it wasn’t a question. I was already here.
TF:Yeah.
SW: Um..
TF: When you look back, I mean, I think a lot of times our support system is obviously our family and our friends. Are there other things that you look back and realize, like oh, that was part of my support network, too? Either one of you can answer that question.
SW: Uh, just my family and my brother, uh and- I- I- Just my family was just awesome. Uh, Lawrence ‘less I’ll say it he had so many interests as a kid he- he knew the periodic table elements at the age of seven.
[TF chuckles]
SW: And I said, ‘How- How do you learn that? Ya, know how do you think of that?’ He knew musical composers, and he could tell you their life stories. So, I knew I had to have him- in the whatever he needed or as far as to continue his- his uh… expansion of whatever interest he had whether it was music or the sciences, going through cross-pollination, magnetism, all of that. I had to make sure I would put him in wherever he could get- grasp information. Um, Omniplex. I had him in...
TF: Oh yeah.
SW: ...uh huh, some programs there.
LN: At the Omniplex which is now known as the Science Museum of Oklahoma- Science Museum Oklahoma had summer day camp programs, and you could enroll your student there enroll- enroll your child there and they would- you would just be in a workshop all day that would teach you about various topics. Chemistry, uh... birds…
TF: Yeah..
[SW laughs]
LN: One in- That one in particular you actually got to take home a pet bird…
TF: Oh really? How did you feel about the pet bird? Surprise!
LN: You don’t recall?
SW: Are you serious? [laughing]
[TF laughing]
LN: You don’t remember the bird?
SW: No.
[SW and TF laughing]
LN: Yeah, it was blue and white. And I had it in a cage and Michelle came over and it was freaked out and you covered it…
SW: Oh! Oh!
LN: I had a pet bird for awhile...
SW: Wow.
LN: ...and it came from the Omniplex.
TF: What was its name?
LN: [Budgie?].
TF: Mm.
SW: I must have really tuned it out.
[SW laughing]
TF: Yeah. You’ve blocked that memory.
[SOMEONE UNKNOWN laughs]
LN: I had it for a few months. It eventually died.
SW: Oh.
TF: Oh, mm. [pause] So it sounds like without those kinds of programs it would have been a lot harder for you-
SW: Oh, yeah-
TF: -to give him the direction you knew he needed.
LN: Well, I think.. Oh, I’m sorry.
SW: No, no.
LN: I won’t speak for that, but, uh, it was the summer program, so if it hadn't been for that, I would have just been sitting at home playing video games or something so it was supplemental
in my education during the summer in between the school years. But even then, my mother goes to Toastmasters International meetings every Wednesday at the library, Ralph Ellison Library.
TF: Mhmm.
LN: And I would always go with her and that whole hour plus the 30 minutes after when she- they were talking to each other after the meeting, I had plenty of time to look at books and learn about different topics. Once the computer systems were introduced, I was able to order books from other libraries really easily.
TF: Yeah.
LN: And I just learned about so many topics from, as she mentioned, some, uh, Ancient Egypt, botany, geology, crystals and minerals that’s a part of what I do now with the arts. I guess I can discuss that later, but... A lot of the education- or a lot of the random facts and trivia that I’ve learned back then was because of library- the time at the library.
TF: Yeah. So it sounds like that Ellison branch of the library was pretty instrumental to your childhood?
LN: It was.
TF: Yeah. Did you wha- so you were going there for years it sounds like?
LN: She’s still a member of the organization now. So, even though they don’t meet at the library, that change was very recent, but all throughout my whole, uh, childhood there were weekly meetings on Wednesdays at Ralph Ellison Library and I’d tag along.
TF: Do you remember when that library was built? It was built in the 70s I think, wasn’t it?
SW: Mm. If not the 70s, early- late 60s.
TF: Yeah.
SW: Uh huh. Yeah.
TF: Was it-
SW: I remember we were- before it was on Spring Lake Drive, I don’t know if it was called Ralph Ellison but that library- then it closed and moved to that location.
TF: Yeah.
SW: Yes.
TF: Did you go to the old library on 36th?
SW: Absolutely, yes.
TF: Yeah.
SW: On Spring Lake Drive, yes. Uh huh.
TF: I think it was called the Northeast branch or something like that.
SW: It may have been called that, yes.
TF: Yeah. So what- were you sad when it closed because it was your childhood library? Or were you excited to see a new library being built? Or both? [chuckles]
SW: Well it was actually in a strip mall so it was just sorta kinda next to the grocery story in a little wedge. I was excited that there was a whole building [erected?] with the name Ralph Ellison.
TF: Yeah.
SW: So, I think I was ex- excited even though it wasn’t closer- I was a little further but it was represented Ralph Ellison.
TF: Yeah.
SW: Yeah, so it was great.
TF: So, when you were a kid, what- did you get to wander the streets on your own with your friends without adult supervision and play dates?
SW: Absolutely.
TF: Yeah.
SW: Until the sun and when the- when- we knew to be home. For we- sundown or we would be at someone else’s home, we would be- it would be almost like the home away from home, so you're still home. As far as just randomly going anywhere, we knew our parameters.
TF: Right.
SW: We- we- I had a girlfriend two streets over but ever- we had- there were so many kids on the street that we could go next door, cross the street, three houses down…
TF: Right.
SW: ...five houses down.
TF: You didn’t have to be driven there.
SW: No, no. [Laughs]
TF: What about when you were kid, were you allowed to go out and play with your friends just in the streets without supervision or did you have play dates or?
LN: I didn’t have any friends.
TF: Oh, okay.
[TF and SW chuckle]
LN: So the one that I did was across the street.
TF: Okay.
LN: So it was no big deal.
TF: That’s handy.
LN: So like directly across the street, and the other friend lived where I was needed to drive over there.
TF: Oh, okay.
LN: Still on the east side but not walking distance. The neighborhood that I grew up in is kind of isolated from everything else and nothing is really walking distance except for someone else’s house.
TF: Yeah.
LN: And there was a park across the street but there weren’t very many things to do there at the park.
TF: Oh, okay.
LN: There still isn’t much actually unless you’re playing softball...
TF: Was it one of those new parks where you think they’re gonna put something there and they never did? [Laughs]
LN: I don’t- no it’s not new but it’s just- there wasn’t much there- there still is like slides. There- Well actually the slides are new. The little playground equipment’s new.
[SW mumbles in agreeance]
TF: Yeah.
LN: But there was a baseball diamond. I do remember my grandfather taking me there to fly kites.
TF: Oh, yeah?
LN: One day. That was very memorable. Maybe once or twice we went out there and it was a lot of fun.
SW: And the boomerang- don’t you remember the little...
LN: I did- And uh- while I was at the Omniplex there was a gift shop and there I found a boomerang. [TF laughs] It was a triangular boomerang. But you throw it and it loops around. I did it in the backyard a few times and it got caught in a tree [SW laughs] and have to wait a few days for the wind to blow it down.
[SW and TF laugh]
LN: And then the regular, ya know, traditional shaped boomerang, that one didn’t work as well as the contemporary, triangular boomerang.
TF: Right. And since you don’t need it for hunting…
LN: Right.
[SW laughs]
TF: You can have the closed side. Yeah. [laughs]
LN: Yeah, it was just a fun thing to throw and then catch. Catch back if you could.
TF: So, um, but if you- if you had wanted to wander were you allowed to?
LN: Uh, I don’t think I would’ve- no, probably not. I wouldn’t have wanted to, anyway, [TF laughs] but I think around the time I was growing up, the awareness of child predators and kidnapping was higher than it was when- in the previous generation.
TF: Mhmm.
LN: It’s not like it’s anything new, it’s just something that people weren’t talking about or aware of too much back in the day.
TF: Yeah.
LN: That’s what I’m thinking.
TF: And I’m thinking Wildwood, the houses are a lot more spread out. They have bigger lots right?
LN: Now you’re maybe thinking of Wildwood. Wildwood Hills is another neighborhood.
TF: Oh, I’m thinking of Wildwood Hills.
LN: So, Cashun’s Wildwood is the one that’s just called Wildwood. Commonly, has the marker on the outside that says ‘Wildwood’...
TF: Okay.
LN: ...but, uh, Wildwood Hills was built around the same time maybe a couple of years after in the late 50s, early 60s...
TF: Mm.
LN: ….and that neighborhood is along 63rd street.
TF: That’s the one I’m thinking of, yeah. It’s all wooded.
LN: S-S-Sante Fe and 63rd all the way to almost Kelly.
TF: Okay.
SW: Mhmm.
TF: So, when you, uh, off- This question is for either of you. When you think of this neighborhood right around the old Douglass Highschool, and this part of what some people call deep Oklahoma City, did you spend any time here as children? And, um, if so what were your feelings about this part of town?
SW: Okay..
TF: Were you aware of this building?
SW: Yes. Lawrence didn’t but when I grew up I had an aunt that lived not too far and she hadn’t note- she had a two-story home, she had no children, but she would let all- all the- all of her nieces and nephews would love to go there to spend the night. And when we left there, sometime we would walk to Washington Park.
TF: Hm.
SW: And that was pretty exciting. Ya know, Washington Park, swimming- they had swimming uh, just a lot of activities. Lot of activities. I remember snow cone machine o-o-or vendor and-and in just walking w- with the family to the park. We would also, like I said, we would go to the movie. We would ac-actually leave Creston Hills walking, ya know, with some of the neighborhood kids, uh, course with the permission of our parents to go to the movies over here on 6th street. So, that’s from 17th and Eastern at that time which is Martin Luther King to 6th or-or is it 4th street? Wherever the Jewel Theatre.
TF: That’s quite a hike.
SW: Yeah. But, it wa- when you’re with a group of kids, it didn’t seem like it was that long. I-I think I could not have been- at the last time I attended I couldn't have been more than 10 years old.
TF: When you remember making that walk, if you visually bring it back, what do you remember about the houses, the yards, the streets?
SW: Just the friends, honestly.
TF: Yeah, you were just focused on each other.
SW: Just the friends. Uh huh.
TF: Yeah.
SW: And trying to keep up with the older ones, cause I was sort of like the tag along little one.
[TF chuckles]
SW: But uh- But uh- And, ya know, I just don’t- I do remember, though, I did have an aunt that lived on 9th street. I loved her- she had a two-story home, too. Aunt and uncle. And it was just almost- it just felt magical because it was just- the woodwork was so beautiful it just went all up the walls, the floors, the banister for the stairs, and uh…
TF: That was your idea of like a fancy house probably… yeah.
SW: It was just- It was big.
TF: Yeah.
SW: And they had the side wrapping porch.
TF: Oh, yeah.
SW: And that was pretty nice.
TF: Is that house still standing?
SW: No. It was actually, uh, in a fire.
TF: Oh, wow.
SW: And I haven’t been by there, but I- I don’t even know if- I think that whole area may have been changed.
TF: Mm.
SW: And, I think I may not want to see it gone.
TF: Mm. You haven’t been back over there in a while?
SW: No, I haven’t. But I- A few years later, ran into, uh, one of my girlfriends has a home, uh, later that I met. I went into her home and it’s the same identical floor plan-
TF: Wow.
SW: -and I could not believe it. And I was able to tell my cousins, one lived in Chicago, and the other one lives in Okl- Northwest Oklahoma City that I found the house just like their home.
TF: Wow.
SW: And uh..
TF: Brought back a lot of memories, I bet.
SW: Yes, it did. It was just beautiful.
TF: Did you- the house that burned, it was 9th and what? Do you remember? I mean as a kid I never drove so..
SW: I do not remember but-
TF: ..I don’t know the streets either. [chuckles]
SW: wherever- wherever the- I think there’s a grocery store called OK Market or something..
TF: Mhmm.
SW: .. sort of like on that curved jail on 8th street.
TF: Mm.
SW: It was- It was like a block east. I mean block west and north of there.
TF: Okay.
SW: Yeah.
TF: Yeah. So you- so you said-
SW: I was just a little- yeah I was just a little girl. I just remember walking up the steps just to get on the porch. And then around the side of the porch, they had the swing and it was all covered in- It was cool and nice- just to sit out there.
TF: Yeah.
SW: Yeah.
TF: What were the- What was your aunt and uncle’s name? Do you-
SW: Grace and Edward [Ross?].
TF: Do you remember, were the neighbors out, too? Do you remember when you visited?
SW: I did-
TF: Were people out on their porches?
SW: I would not know the neigh-I was- I was just too small. Too young.
TF: Yeah, we're so focused when we’re that age.
SW: Yeah. [Chuckles] Well it was just once you, ya know, get out of the car, and you go in the house or, ya know, doing whatever you’re do-you’re doing while you’re there. I remember my grandfather…being in a wheelchair upstairs, and I would always love to play with him by pulling the rocking- rocker back and he said, ‘Oh, don’t pull me back!’ [TF laughs], ya know. And I really- I-I was just so tickled thinking I was really scaring him, and he was probably just humoring me of course.
[SW and TF laugh]
TF: So you have no-you didn’t have any experiences with this part of town, as a kid?
SW: No.
LN: No, I almost never went south of 23rd except for to my grandmothers on my father’s side. It was like 19th and I-35-
TF: Okay.
LN: -but aside from that I really didn’t go around much.
TF: Was it just because there was nothing down here that was interesting? Like the Omniplex or?
LN: Uh, probably, but um..
TF: Nothing for kids to do back then.
LN: There wasn’t much to do. I didn’t even know that this was the original Douglass until a few months ago.
TF: Oh, yeah.
LN: I didn’t- When I would hear older people say, ‘The old Douglass.’ I thought they meant before where Douglass is currently was renovated.
TF: Right.
LN: I thought they meant before the- the remodel.
TF: So, you weren’t aware of the building either.
LN: No, I didn’t know this building was here until that first meeting with, um, Black Space…
TF: Yeah.
LN: ...Oklahoma and Tatiana a few months ago.
TF: Yeah, yeah.
[SW mumbles in agreeance]
LN: I am surprised to know this was the original school. This is the one that all the older people are talking about.
TF: Yep.
LN: And at the time, it seemed and probably was the only- the only school where black- at one highschool the black kids could go to, is that right?
SW: I’m not really sure, but I knew that because they were restricted to live in, uh, certain areas. I uh- as I understand that this is where the school was as far as I- what I..
TF: Yeah and I think like in the ‘20s probably this was the highschool.
[SW mumbles in agreeance]
LN: Well, and famous around the- the si- people graduating in the ‘60s that are- who I would be talking to like neighbors that went to Douglass, they all know each other from high school.
TF: Mhmm.
LN: It feels like to me every black person in Oklahoma City around that age all went to the same highschool...for segregation.
TF: Well and it’s interesting. Yeah there’s like a Douglass network even regardless of which-which version of the school you went into- went to [LN mumbles in agreeance]. There’s like a Douglass network for sure. Yeah. Do you remember being aware of this building when you were down here?
SW: Not really. I think that-
TF: It’s huge, ya know.
SW: It is [TF laughs] but I know it's been boarded up for so long but I remember them saying that’s the old Douglass. I didn’t know it was ever any other school.
TF: Mm.
SW: So, that was surprising to me and just to see it renovated it’s-it’s just- I think it’s just an outstanding all the architectural tech- details that are still here and were preserved. I just think it’s great.
TF: So, thinking about places on the Northeast side, and you’ll probably have different answers, if there’s something that’s gone now that you wish was still there- still here from the Northeast side? One specific place that you really wish was still here.
SW: I-I can just say that I wish that the neighborhood schools were thriving, healthy, and had the things that we had because without that, I think that’s the foundation of-of [springboard?] and to see that school boarded up just- it just kinda broke my heart. [SW slightly laughs] That’s the-
TF: What about you Lawrence?
LN: Most of the things from my childhood are still standing.
TF: Are they?
LN: Cause it wasn’t that long ago, but there was a convenient store, Mr. Vicker’s. I think is- that was it, uh, that was near my grandmother on my father’s side and her house. So, my cousin’s and I would walk from her house over to that little shop and buy candy, ya know, the fake candy cigarettes-
TF: Mhmm.
LN: Back when that was okay.
[TF and SW laughs]
LN: We were getting those all the time.
TF: [Laughs] Candy sticks. Yeah.
LN: I mean it looked like pieces of chalk. It’s really weird to imagine that- that was candy but, yeah, that would be something cool to drive by and- and see. But, yeah I can’t think of any other buildings that were just completely gone that I miss.
TF: Was that on 19th?
LN: It was, uh, think that would make it [SW at the same time] 16th.
SW: Yes.
LN: 16th and I-35.
SW: 16th in Edwards Edition.
TF: In Edwards.
LN: Are you familiar with Edwards Edition?
TF: Yeah.
SW: A rich history there.
TF: Yeah, um…
SW: Oh, Edwards Hospital. Just think they had a hospital right there at 16th which is now I-35. There was also a park that I just have one… remembering one- just one- we visited one time called Black Hawk Park.
TF: Hm.
SW: It was an amusement park right there at 23rd and I-35. Right where those apartments are on the south...west...corner.
TF: Hm. There was an amusement park there?
SW: Mhmm.
TF: I didn’t know that. I knew about Spring Lake Amusement Park.
SW: Then it was Spring Lake, yes.
TF: Did you ever go to that one?
SW: Absolutely. I was there that day of that- that riot.
TF: Talk about that.
SW: Oh, wow. [Sighs then pauses]
TF: If you want. You don’t have to.
SW: Yeah. [Pause] Well, for the longest we knew we couldn’t go, and there was another park [on our way to it?].
[Emotional pause]
TF: [To SOMEONE UNKNOWN] You can pause if you want.
SW: It- We were having-Ya know for years-
LN: Should you resume now?
SW: -as a kid. I’m ready. As a kid we would see the commercials, and I said, ‘Ya know, we wanna go to Spring Lake,’ and I said, ‘Well, okay, but ya know we really can’t go now.’ I- and then someone, I don’t know who, let me know we couldn’t go because we were black, and… So, anyway, when we got a chance to go our school took us and we, ya know, had a lotta nice times. And th- And it was probably that same first year, uh, one of my uh- uh friends from the neighborhood we walked and cause it wasn’t far from the house, and it was at the park and all of a sudden it was- it was later in the- It still was sunlight- it was on a Sunday. There was- the kids started running and, um, we knew there was- there was a problem. There- there was a fighting or whatever, and I later found out that it was said- I heard that they said that someone said that a black kid had thrown a white kid off the Big Dipper, which didn’t happen. And, um, that’s what caused all the ruckus you know, but I didn’t see anything also I was runnin’, I started running, and just comin’ out the Scary House which is one of the, uh, rides and we just heard people running, and we just started running. Of course, we were out in the parking lot looking, and of course I looked over, my father was- he did- he knew about- ya know he- I guess everyone came to retrieve their kids, so we all just got in the car and went home. And, ya know, that’s just so to put a damper on it for a while but, uh, we were able to, ya know, later… I- I just
don’t even remember much other than that, but we had a lot of good memories there though. There was a lot of good memories.
LN: You were living in Creston Hills at the time or in Spring Lake?
SW: No we were living in Park Estates- in Park Estates. Which...
[SW and LN mumbling]
TF: Do you remember- Do you remember what year that was?
SW: I really don’t.
TF: Mm. How old were you about?
SW: I think I had to be about 14 maybe.
TF: You were a teenager.
SW: Yeah, I was a teenager.
TF: How did- how was Black Hawk Amusement Park different from what you recall?
SW: Black Hawk?
TF: Mhmm.
SW: Um, I just went one time with my mother. I remember sitting in the bleachers, I guess maybe with a hot dog or something. We would have gotten it from concession, and watching the swimming. And I wanted- I said, ‘Well, I wanted to get in the water.’ My mother said no and then I thought blacks couldn’t swim in the water-
TF: Oh, so it was also segregated.
SW: I said, ‘Oh.’ But, I don’t think she told me that she said, ‘Well you can’t swim.’ I said, ‘Well I can learn.’ And then someone said- Ya know someone told me, ya know, ‘We can’t get in the water, negroes can’t get- can’t swim- can’t get in the water. That’s not for us.’ So that was that one experience there. I only remember being there one time, but after that I said, ‘Huh, I don’t wanna go back there cause I don’t just watch someone swim. That’s what I wanna do.’
TF: Yeah.
SW: And I think they had other little things, but I- I don’t remember anything other than the swimming pool.
TF: Wow.
SW: And, uh, it had a lot of trees. I remember that. It was shaded because of so many trees.
TF: Yeah.
SW: So, it was nice, and we walked to that from the house in Creston Hills.
TF: Do you remember, um, when lots of public spaces became desegregated? Did it feel gradual or did it feel like there was suddenly these sea change where you could go where you wanted to go?
SW: You know what? I can really...attribute a lot of..insulating from my parents-
TF: Hm.
SW: Because- Okay at GEX, there were blacks, whites, whoever worked at- at federal government could go there. So, we didn’t see any segregation or you can’t go. I- I was probably- I was very young maybe three years old and was part of the- the [sit-ins?]. Of course, I didn’t remember. I was just too young when my father had me there, ya know. And I remember us coming home and my dad saying, ‘There you are! You’re on television!’ and I- I was so young I don’t even remember leaving the house, so I just knew I was there and a part of it.
TF: Yeah.
SW: And he was very active, so.
TF: That’s very interesting that he was very active but also really protect- shielding you from a lot of it, yeah.
SW: Sure.
TF: Yeah.
SW: Sure.
TF: About- Selective about where they took you. Yeah. So, did you feel like you had to do that as a parent? Or were- did you feel liberated from that?
SW: Oh yeah, I was liberated because I have to tribute again to my father. Eddie Stamps. He- He instilled in us that we are as talented and as gifted as anyone, and- and- and I would ask him when it was time for integration. I ask him, I said, ‘Why don’t- I don’t really know if I wanna go to school if they- they don’t want us there.’ And he said to me, he said, ‘Ya know, you’re gonna have to work with all types of people and this is a good time to get started to understand them more and, um, ya know, and you know you’re- you’re smart the work is not a question, ya know? You just have to learn to- so people can understand each other, you have to get in there, ya know?’ So.. We had a choice really but- [TF laughs] but it turned out to be a wonderful experience. Northeast had a good mix of blacks and whites. I loved it. [Heart in it?] as well. Have some good friends. Um, particularly in our performing group, ya know, we were like a family, and, um… And, ya know, it’s just a very good experience, actually.
TF: Yeah.
SW: Mhmm.
TF: So did you learn all about this local history when you were learning African American History? Some of these stories?
LN: I did. And from my mother and grandfather being active in the civil rights movement back then, uh, I heard many stories. And ya know as old people like to tell- reminisce a lot.
[SW and TF laugh]
LN: I get to hear a lot of the stories over and over again from-from my grandfather, and lots of warnings too about racism.
TF: Yeah.
LN: I didn’t believe them at the time and because I was going to an elementary school that was all black, I didn’t experience racism. I thought that was something in the past. And I thought that there were just as many white people as there were black people in the world because I really didn’t encounter them in public except for going to the store or something. So, once I...I went to
middle school at Classen, and I remember telling one of the girls there that the school I went to was all black and she was like, ‘That’s racist.’
[SW laughs]
LN: [Chuckling] It’s- It’s a weird thought.
[TF laughs]
LN: I was like okay, but you would.. [chuckles] anyway. So... uh… Even in middle school, I didn’t experience any issues with racism cause those parents there were probably really progressive that had their students in- in- at Classen and then went back to Northeast where the demographics are pretty much the same except black and white are inverted. Everything else, Asian and Hispanic population be the same.
TF: Mhmm.
LN: But it seemed like pretty much it’s the same school. Aside from the demographic change, but it wasn’t until I was maybe in my second year of college and lived off campus in Edmond at UCO that I encountered racism. And it kind of hit me all at once and- and surprised me. So, the whole time that I was hearing stories from my mother and aunts, uncles, grandfather when I was younger, I was thinking, ‘They’re stuck in the past. It’s just not like that anymore, ya know? And people don’t think that way anymore, and to have it all hit you in your- maybe in your early twenties is kind of, uh, traumatic. So... me even now seeing things over and over again that I’d been warned about earlier...it’s still kind of a shock, and to see it coming back with a bigger, I don’t know, uh...impact.
TF: Do you think Edmond feels like, uh, a less safe space?
LN: Definitely, I think in my last- in my 16 or 17 years of driving, I’ve been pulled over more in Edmond than I have my entire life and I’ve lived there for five years.
TF: Wow. So-
LN: Pulled over for dumb things, no reason and, uh, never got a ticket, but it was just the harrassment of like they were stopping to see what I was doing, if I was drunk or something. I wouldn’t say it’s just- it was just because the college town..
TF: Right.
LN: ...It’s just they wanna make sure that you feel unwelcome there. And as you may know already from research that Edmond was a sundown town. And one of the biggest selling points for real estates- real estate agents in the city was, ‘Hey we have all these people and there are no coloreds here.’ You can find documentation in…
TF: Right.
LN: ....pamphlets that support that.
TF: So, Oklahoma City, which some people moved to Edmond cause they think it feels safer white people, I guess. But, central Oklahoma City seems like it’s a much safer space in some ways.
LN: Um, Central Oklahoma City...where exactly do you mean?
TF: Just the central part of Oklahoma City between, like say, I-35 and I-44 maybe and, what, 36th to I-40. That central corridor. Does it feel pretty safe? Or do you feel like the northeast side feels particularly safer?
LN: Uh, the northeast side is small compared to the rest of the quadrants of Oklahoma City.
TF: Yeah.
LN: So, even in the small piece of Northeast Oklahoma City, there are some areas that are safer than others, but overall it’s a lot safer than it was in the 90s. In the 90s, it was probably the most dangerous it had ever been.
SW: Mhmm.
TF: Have you ever been pulled over by the police on the northeast side?
LN: Nope. Although that’s- that’s not really- I don’t drive around too much in Northeast Oklahoma City at night-
TF: Right.
LN: -to be pulled over. I see a lot of police. I’ve heard people say they get pulled over all the time on the east side but I haven’t had that experience. Um, because I live right next to the highway, and I’m really just two blocks away from Northwest technically. Santa Fe is the dividing line so there’s two blocks and then it’s east. My address still has three- three numbers.
TF: So it sounds like- I mean we’ve talked a lot about some of the things that are gone like the neighborhood schools, but the things that are- it sounds like there are things that have improved since the 90s like you were saying there were times where certain neighborhoods were not safe.
LN: I think nationwide, uh, it was a lot worse in the 90s when there was a lot of gang violence happening and [SW at the same time] drugs.
TF: Yeah.
LN: -that- that was the state of a lot of communities.
TF: So you feel like those aspects have improved.
LN: Yeah. They’ve- they’ve improved. The only issues that will make it look dangerous or poverty when people see poor people, they see criminals, but that’s not necessarily the case. They just maybe- some of them might be alcoholic or strung out or something but not...not exactly, um, the dangers that you may have seen a few years ago.
TF: Yeah.
LN: But, the reputation stays.
SW: Mhmm.
TF: So, speaking of staying, what are things from the Northeast side that you think have remained the same that are good things that have stayed?
SW: I would think it a love of- of memories particularly from, as you mention about, ya know, like highschool memories, or for me the unity of the community, the people in it, the culture of things like this particular facility: Douglass. And so many alumni, and the- and when you have good
churches that do great things. Th-th-that can be the glue. I- I can’t say anything- I can’t think of anything other than that.
LN: I always think the library. The Ralph Ellison Library. I’m glad that it’s still there. I worry all the time that it’s gonna get closed down. I don’t know if it’s- how it’s funded, how they choose which libraries to keep open, but...my fear is if they’re closing one down that will be the first one. Cause that’s the way these things normally go. So, if it weren’t for that library being there in- in the community, I wouldn’t have learned so many things. I would have a lot of holes in my body of knowledge that I have right now. Another thing that stayed is my neighborhood. My neighborhood was a good neighborhood and still is a good neighborhood. And I’m actively involved in the neighborhood association right now and just really happy to see that there are lot of people that still care about the lawns in the community.
TF: Yeah, good. Neighborhood associations are important if you can keep ‘em active, right?
LN: Right. We’re- We’ve had some problems with that, but it looks like, uh, we’re on the right track as far as, uh, participation.
TF: Well, I know we’ve kept you a long time- Were you going to say something else? Go ahead.
LN: Do you have a time constraint?
TF: Well-
LN: Is someone coming in right after?
TF: I don’t know, actually. But I just feel like we’re wearing you out. But-
SW: Oh, no.
LN: No.
TF: I was gonna ask if there was anything we haven’t asked that you wish you could- still want to talk about or things you wished we’d asked? Things you’d like to make sure we include-
SW: Well, I would like to say I have to attribute a lot of- of what I would say is successful in loving life. For having great and loving parents. My father was Eddie Stamps. He was- And my
mother Gladys Stamps. He was very active with the civil rights movement. He was at the March on Washington... and he instilled a lot of self-respect, self-reliance, hard work, and just to see how he raised us. And think about the sacrifices they had my- ya know both of them worked. My mother actually-They both had federal jobs and my father was also a car salesmen and... how they worked together to raise us cause sometime mother had the graveyard shift or maybe she had to work, uh- She didn’t work all-all-all when I was young but the time we got a little older, that’s when she actually worked so we were really, really blessed. And that’s one thing I just want to attribute the wisdom and the- the knowledge that was- that was- uh, seeds of knowledge- knowledge that they gave us that really- gave us, I would say, wisdom at a young age to do the right things and try to instill the right things. I remember one time I was- when- first home I was going to buy, I started by a house that was safe as far as cost.
TF: Mhmm.
SW: And he said, ‘Sherri, I think you can do better than that. Just give yourself some time. Don’t rush into a house by- ya know take your time- take time.’ And I did. About six months later, I found a home- a great deal on a house in a good neighborhood. Not a start- fixer upper.
[SW and TF laugh]
TF: Is that the house that you raised Lawrence in?
[SW and LN muttering in agreeance]
TF: That’s great. And you still live there?
SW: No. Uh huh.
LN: But, I do.
TF: Mm.
LN: I live there now.
SW: He came back from- came back from, uh…
[LN shows TF a picture of the house]
TF: Oh, home sweet home. That’s great. Oh, that’s a beautiful house.
SW: Uh huh. That- That’s a before picture? Oh, is that... I can’t see. [Laughs]
TF: Yeah.
LN: They’re both out there but I added [ornament?] and that’s in the picture.
SW: Oh. Okay, okay.
TF: That’s a beautiful house.
SW: So…
TF: What year was it built?
LN: 1961.
TF: Oh, nice.
SW: He knows the details.
[SOMEONE UNKNOWN Laughs]
TF: It’s a great legacy.
SW: He knows a lot. [Laughs] TF: I like that you carry a picture of your home. That’s wonderful.
LN: Now that the polaroid or instant photos are small enough to fit in your wallet. It’s- It’s easy to carry around.
TF: Oh, I love architecture from that period, too.
[SW and LN mumble in agreeance]
SW: Mid-century modern.
LN: Yeah.
TF: Yeah.
[SW laughs]
SW: I learned that from him.
TF: Are you still in the neighborhood even though you’re not in that house anymore?
SW: Oh, no, no. I’m no longer in the neighborhood. As a matter of fact, the home was vacant when he was in Korea. Uh…
LN: The house had been empty for many, many years, and…
SW: Yeah.
LN: So, when I was looking to buy a house, I was talking to a friend that was a realtor. He was saying, ‘Well, there’s a house in your family. Why don’t you just move into that one and fix it up?’ I thought the cost would have been so much greater to -to fix it up, but it wasn’t.
TF: Oh. Perfect.
LN: It was a very good decision. One thing I did want to mention is I’m still….still struggling with, uh, whether or not, well I guess the positive and negative effects of integration.
TF: Mm.
LN: And I talked to my grandmother on my father’s side, and she had told me so many stories about how it used to be, everything that you needed during segregation was there on the east side. As far as movies, uh, theatre performers would come from all over the country and perform on the east side so- and black performers- and... everything you needed was there but after-after- after integration and segregation ended...everyone was kind of in a hurry to move out. So, everyone wanted to go where white people were living, and that weekend the neighborhoods, a lot of houses were vacant and then being sold for real cheap. And then become rental property where people who don’t really care about it wind up moving in there, and… it- it’s a double edged sword cause as a person looking to buy a home, do you want to- as a black person buying a home, do you want to...move into the black community? Improve it, uh. Or maintain it? Or do you go in with the same purpose of, ya know, um, improving social justice, or social relations moving- integrate a black- a white neighborhood or bring more color to a neighborhood that would be segregated otherwise? There’s no- I can’t think if there- there is a right answer for that.
[Pause]
TF: Do you think that- do you see other people your generation who are wanting to like, um, move back and preserve and revitalize these neighborhoods?
LN: Yes, I do-
TF: That’s encouraging
LN: -have a couple of friends that are moving back into the area and… one that’s moved into the area and bought a few homes and is renting them out.
[Pause]
TF: It’s alright. Don’t worry about it.
[LN laughs quietly]
[SW laughs]
TF: That’s exciting.
LN: It’s like the Oscars when they start playing music.
[SW laughs]
TF: In-Investing-
LN: Right.
TF: -in the future of the community.
LN: Right.
TF: That’s encouraging.
LN: But one thing that is annoying is talking to some people who don’t understand what gentrification means.
TF: Mhmm.
LN: To some people they use gentrification to mean white people moving into a black place. But it’s not about race, it’s about class and money.
TF: Mhmm.
LN: And while race and class are connected through to- due to some opportunities that were and challenges that are presented to one group over the other...they’re not exactly linked. So, when someone talks about white people moving into my neighborhood, that’s not gentrification. The neighborhood never went down for any rich person to come and build it up or, um, displace
the people that are there already. And...I also believe gentrification isn’t done just by indi-individuals moving into a neighborhood or building modern homes. It’s more about commercial...
TF: Mhmm.
LN: ...changes. A Starbucks being built next to or around the corner from an impoverished neighborhood or something.
TF: Yeah.
SW: Mhmm.
LN: I think a good example of gentrification would be the Plaza district. To watch that area suddenly just have all of these really expensive places pop up.
TF: Mhmm.
LN: Ritzy places, and then the homes surrounded get demolished and then new ones pop up. Then the people who are renting in those neighborhoods can’t rent there anymore cause their owner decide, “Oh wow, this is a hot spot. Let me raise the rent.’
TF: Right.
LN: Then, they wind up somewhere else, so... I think, um, gentrification is a word that’s thrown around without understanding the full concept of what it means. It isn’t about race only.
TF: Yeah, I think a lot of people are concerned that the expansion of the med center and the people who want to live near it are displacing people with the property tax base. And so, I’m hopeful that your generation can help smart gentrification happen. Ya know, if there is- I mean gentrification is one of those like is there a good version, is it always negative? Is it about- ya know, is it one of those words that has gotten a bad reputation, or?
LN: There are some people that say, ‘Hey, why don’t we get this in my neighborhood? Why don’t we get that in our neighborhood?’ If you had it, then do you really want it there because that’s what gentrification would look like, if you had all of these facilities. Now of course we need more grocery stores-
TF: Yes.
LN: -and have food in the area, but...you don’t really need a Whole Foods, so- or real- or an Aloft in the middle of- of the east side. So… I just have a hard time under- uh, figuring out if gentrification’s actually a bad thing or a good thing.
TF: Yeah, or yeah, or is it the same thing as community redevelopment in a different package. Or something like that, yeah. Yeah. They are tough questions so it’s all on your generation man.
[SW and TF laugh]
SW: And I think that generation are- they are doing a lot- a lot more than the one right in the middle of us. There’s a little window.
LN: Generation X.
[SW laughs]
TF: Yeah, that’s my prob- my generation.
SW: [Laughing] Your sister’s generation.
[SOMEONE UNKNOWN talking]
TF: [Laughing] It’s your sister’s fault.
[Whole group laughing]
TF: Well, thank you so much for-
SW: Thank you.
TF: -sharing your stories and for your time. And, um, if you think of other people you think we should interview will you let us know? We’ll reach out to them.
SW: Yes.
LN: I do have Bettye Wedgeworth across the street.
SW: Oh! Definitely.
TF: Let’s get that down. Bettye Wedgeworth?
LN: Uh huh. B-E-T-T-Y-E.
TF: Okay.
LN: Wedgeworth. She wrote the book, uh that you can find in local libraries. ‘Who’s Who.’ Or no, sorry, ‘What’s In a Name?’
TF: Okay.
LN: Uncovering the history book behind like landmarks or something like that. It’s a book that explains all of the different streets, neighborhoods, um, schools that are named after black people-
TF: Wonderful.
LN: -and the history behind it. So-
TF: Great.
LN:- if you can find that book in the library it’s very good.
TF: She’d be a good one to interview.
LN: I have- have a copy of it if..
SW: She’s a neighbor too.
LN: Yeah, she’s across the street. She has a lot to say and you would probably have to interview her in her home.
TF: That’s- We could probably work that out. If you wouldn’t mind chatting with her and ask her if she’s interested, and then we’ll- we’ll arrange it.
LN: Okay.
TF: Great.
LN: Do you have a card?
TF: Uh, we’re at- uh, we have the Black Space, um, email is hello@blackspaceok.org.
LN: Okay.
TF: Yeah.
SW: [mumbing] -space.org. Okay.
UNKNOWN VOICE: Yeah.