Description:
Kay Francis Sofola talks about life in Northeast Oklahoma City.
Transcript:
Oral History Project
Kay Frances Sofola
Interviewer-Tracy Floreani
Interviewee-Kay Frances Sofola
-Gina Sofola
Tracy Floreani: Thanks for being here today. Could you, for the record, state and spell your
name so we have a recording of it?
Kay Frances Sofola: My name is Kay Frances Sofola. K-A-Y, F-R-A-N-C-E-S, S-O-F-O-L-A.
TF: Thank you. Do you mind telling us when you were born, and where?
KFS: June 14 th , 1931. Sand Springs, OK.
TF: Do you know what brought your family to Oklahoma in the first place?
KFS: My father was born in Oklahoma, Eufaula. My mother was born in Van Buren, Arkansa.
Crafort County. They moved to Oklahoma when she was 17 years of age. They moved near
Eufaula.
TF: And that’s where your parents met?
KFS: Yes.
TF: And do you know anything about your family history before they moved to Oklahoma and
Arkansas?
KFS: Yes.
TF: Where they might have been before?
KFS: Yes. My maternal…My great…My maternal grandmother, great-grandmother. I don’t know
where she was born-well, yes-I think she was born in Ireland. And her husband, my
grandmother’s father, was Samuel Larrimore: L-A-R-R-I-M-O-R-E. And I understand he was
Cherokee Indian and Black, and she was Irish. And then he died, and she remarried somebody
that was Black, the last name was Green. And there were three of them by her father,
Larrimore. And her sister died when she was 12 years of age. The mother disappeared after she
married the second husband, so they grew up without a mother. And then she married my
grandfather, Samuel Bowens: B-O-W-E-N-S. And he was born in South Carolina. And I was
fortunate enough to pick up, I was…for some other purpose, I picked up the census.
TF: Mmh.
KFS: Of 1910, with my grandmother-maternal grandmother- and I also had the census for my
father, uh family, his father and the offspring. And his mother died when he was three years
old. There were 7 in that family and there were seven in my mother’s family. His family died
when they were young, I only knew three of them. I knew the oldest sister that took care of
them, uh, after their mother died. And she was 18 years of age, so she took care of them until
she got married. And my maternal grandfather remarried. So, I knew the offsprings of those.
And… see what else do you want to know?
TF: Well (interrupted)
KFS: Well when they, when they move to Oklahoma.
TF: Yeah
KFS: They move near Council Hill.
TF: Okay.
KFS: That’s near Checotah. So that’s where they were when I knew them.
TF: A lot (Interrupted)
KFS: Well my parents, when they got married, they moved-my father was already in Kansas
City, Kansas.
TF: Ah okay.
KFS: And my mother moved there. And that’s when my oldest sis, where my oldest sister was
born. And her name is Geraldine {Pause} Jackson Keels Coulter. Uh She’s still alive and she’s 94
years old.
TF: Wow
KFS: She’s the oldest.
TF: Is she still in Kansas City?
KFS: She was born in Kansas City, Kansas. But she lives in Oklahoma. All my siblings live in
Oklahoma.
TF: Well, I know a lot of families back then moved to Oklahoma and the area around here
because it had more opportunity.
KFS: Mm-hmm
TF: For African Americans, do you know if that’s what made your family want to come?
KFS: (Overlapping a touch) well she, well she uh, when she graduated from high school in 1943,
she went, she wanted to go to Kansas to nursing school, but my parents couldn’t afford it. So
that was during the war and they had some kind of training, uh, opportunity at Langston to
work in the military, uh, get training to work at Tinker Air Force Base.
TF: Uh-huh
KFS: And that’s where she worked for many years. And then she went to nursing school. So she
retired as a nurse, she worked at St. Anthony. And then, the second-My mother never worked
outside the home. Am I following the story correct?
TF: You’re fine!
KFS: Okay.
TF: I’m curious to know, what brought you to Oklahoma City?
KFS: Okay. What brought me to Oklahoma City-they hired me at Tinker Air Force Base.
TF: Okay. We’ve heard a lot of people talk about Tinker. It sounds like they were trying to make
more opportunities for Black folk at Tinker.
KFS: Well, not really. Cause that’s the reason I left.
TF: Really?
KFS: And went to New York because of the segregation
TF: Mmh.
KFS: Back there then. And, I remembered that I was the only Black in the organization. And
there became a position available and usually they would take the person that was qualified.
Well, they didn’t take me.
TF: Mmh.
KFS: They took a lady, I can understand cause she was, she had worked for the, she had been a
supervisor at, uh, the state capitol. And somebody called me, a friend of mine called me from
another organization and told me that I know that her name was Verna, it was, Levey. Cause
her husband, she had told me she was leaving. Cause her husband was going to OU in
engineering. So she had told me when he got his degree, they were leaving. And that’s for…
And she called me that morning and asked me, told me that Mr. Barris, who was my branch, he
was down talking with her branch trying to get this lady, that she was much older than I, cause
she was in her fifties. And about him, this person would have been his secretary. But she would
also would have been supervising the girls so they safe. The young ladies. And, so when he
came back, I went (unintelligible) to his office cause I knew I was qualified for the position. And
as soon as he-I knocked on the door and he told me to “come in” and before I could say
anything, he starts saying, “I’m considering you, I’m considering you.” And I said, “Well, why are
you considering me? You didn’t tell us. You didn’t say anything about it.” And he said, “But you
need to take a supervisory test.” And I was kinda fiery back there then, and I told him I wasn’t
afraid of the supervisor test, I was, but I didn’t let him know that.
Both: [Laugh]
KFS: And so, he came out and I worked the section sheet. Well they had two, now I’m the only
non-White in the whole organization. They had two girls, white girls, working at the other two
sections. And I’m working for seven technicians. And a boss, just like they were-and they was
two. And they had me on one. Well, I could keep up, cause I, but, that’s beside the point. So he
came out and he said, “Be in the testing room at 12:30,” that same day and my boss spoke up
and said, “Why does she have to be in the testing room?” So he went back and told me to be in
the testing room the next day, next morning. So I asked one of the, it was the man that I
roomed with, but he was a supervisor of plumbing or something. So I asked him when I got
home, I called him and asked him, “What was the supervisor test like?” And he said, “It’s just
common sense.” So, that gave me some encouragement. So I walked to the testing site and as I
came back, some girl that was always talking with me, she stopped me and was talking to me,
and I didn’t know, little did I know, somebody told me later that she thought I was going to be
her supervisor, so she was trying to get out. Then, he came out of his office and came and said,
“Kay, how’d you do?” I said, “I don’t know Mr. (SOMETHING), I just left the testing site.” So he
came, he told his secretary to get testing. By the time I got to his room, his office, he said,
“Come in.” He put that phone down like he had had bad news.
TF: [Laugh]
KFS: Like a loved one had died. And he said, “You passed.” He said, “But you must remember
that you’ll be supervising all white girls.” So, I said, “Well they’ve been supervising me.”
TF: [Laugh]
KFS: So, anyway, I was, I was disappointed. So, he did, I imagine that’s the first time, I imagine,
they sit on the directors of maintenance meant to decide on a GS49 position. And they had,
their result was, that she had more supervisory experience. I could see that just based on that
cause she had been a supervisor at the state capitol. I liked Verna. Not Verna, her name was
something else. But anyway, so I’m leaving Oklahoma. And a friend of mine-she was another
girl, she was white, she was in the Air Force-had been in the Air Force. And she was moving to
California, San Bernardino. So she asked me, she said, “Kay, do you wanna go with me?” I was
getting ready to, I wanted to leave Oklahoma, I didn’t know anything about California, I didn’t
have any relatives, but I was ready to follow her. Until somebody said, “Well I got a brother in
Philadelphia, so let’s go to New York.” So that’s how I ended up transferring form Tinker to New
York. And then I met my husband, I went to Nigeria, and Gina, my son, and I ended up coming
back to Oklahoma City. So that’s why, and I’ve been here since that time.
TF: So do you remember what year it was when you moved from Sand Springs to Oklahoma City
the first time?
KFS: 1955
TF: Okay. And if you, we’ll talk about that for a minute. Do you remember your impressions of
Oklahoma City when you moved here? Did it seem a lot like Sand Springs and Tulsa? Or did it
seem different to you, moving here?
KFS: I didn’t compare it. I already had two sisters here.
TF: So you were familiar with this?
KFS: My two older sisters.
TF: What neighborhood did you move to when you moved here?
KFS: I moved to the Northeast part of town.
TF: Do you remember what neighborhood, what street?
KFS: On 10 th . Well I lived with, she lived, my older sister lived on Jordan. 19 th and Jordan. And my
next oldest sister lived on [Struggles to say the street name, Euclid].
TF: Euclid?
KFS: Euclid!
TF: And did you live with one of them when you moved here?
KFS: I lived with my next to oldest sister for a while, and then I moved with the oldest sister.
TF: And how long did you live here before you moved to New York? A few years?
KFS: No, that’s not true. I’m getting confused when I came back with Gina, my friend that I had
met in college. Her mother she had gotten married and moved out. And I moved with her
mother and father. That's where, when I first came from Sand Springs.
TF: But you were in that general neighborhood where you were living?
KFS: Yes. I was on 10 th . I got it confused, I wasn't on Euclid or Jordan when I first came. I was on
10 th and I think it was Laird, uh, Laird, yes by the second house from the corner.
TF: And how many years do you think you lived in Oklahoma City that time before you moved
to New York?
KFS: I lived, I lived here in 1958 so there's three years, basically, three years.
TF: And when you think back on that time were there specific places in the neighborhood that
you particularly liked or remember strongly, like certain restaurants or stores that you really
liked, or parks that you really liked?
KFS: You couldn't go to restaurants if you were black.
TF: There weren’t any black-owned restaurants when you were here?
KFS: Oh, yeah there were black-owned. I didn't go, I didn’t eat, go out to eat.
TF: You were probably on a budget! About how old were you?
KFS: 20, about 22.
TF: So were there places in the community where people gathered on weekends or anything
that you remember going to?
KFS: I remember going to dances, but it was not public dances. It was like, they had Sorority and
Club dances. You know I remember going to those, dressing up and formals.
TF: Did you have to get an invitation to go?
KFS: Yes, it was invitation.
TF: Were you a part of a Sorority or did you just have friends?
KFS: Yes, I was part of a sorority, then I belonged to a club that I joined when I came to
Oklahoma City.
TF: Do those clubs have clubhouses or did they rent spaces for their parties?
KFS: I don’t-oh, they would rent places for their parties.
TF: Do you remember where some of those dances were held?
KFS: No, I don't. But it was a big, it was where they held dances, all the sorority and fraternity
dances, and club dances, but I don't recall where it was.
TF: It was in the neighborhood? Or did you have to go to another part of town?
KFS: You know, I don't remember that.
TF: You just were magically there? I know, I have memories like that.
KFS: I imagine somebody around my age, they would maybe record, recall it. And I'm sure…
TF: Do you remember if you would walk or take somebody’s car or take the bus?
KFS: I was ride with somebody because I didn't drive.
TF: Okay. Did you…
KFS: Or somebody would take me.
TF: Did you ever go for walks around the neighborhood, or were you mostly going to and from
work a lot?
KFS: I didn’t walk around the neighborhood. Uh, but I imagine I did walk cause I didn't have a
car.
TF: Yeah
KFS: Um-hm.
TF: Did you, oh, go ahead!
KFS: But, pretty much I would ride with somebody to church and things like that.
TF: Which church did you go to?
KFS: I belonged to a Saint John’s, but it wasn't where it is. It was on, I think 2nd street or
something then.
TF: Do you remember anything about the building at that location?
KFS: It’s still there. I think it was 3 rd . I think it was either 2 nd street-I don't think it was 2 nd street, I
think Saint John’s was on 3 rd Street.
TF: Do you remember how you felt when you would go into that space? Were there windows
that you really liked, did it have high ceilings?
KFS: I didn’t pay any attention.
TF: You were there for the sermon?
KFS: I was just going for the church service.
TF: Um.
KFS: But I'm pretty certain, I think the building is still there. I think they turned it into an office
building.
TF: It’s the law office one?
KFS: Yeah, something.
TF: You can go in and look at it-if you want-it would be interesting to see if it brings back
memories. Do you remember how you got to work down at Tinker? Cause that's kind of far
from here.
KFS: I rode. We uh, paid, you know then they had shared ride, where somebody would drive
and you pay them every week or whenever you got paid- they’d charge you so much. And then
I did a lot of overtime, uh I only worked at Tinker three years and, uh, my sisters would take me,
I remember they’d, the bus, I don’t think it picked us up in Oklahoma City, I think we had to go
to Capitol Hill on Saturdays, and they’d take me to catch the bus and I’d ride the bus to Tinker.
TF: Did you work a lot of weekends?
KFS: I worked a lot of Saturdays, not Sundays. Saturdays, for a period of time.
TF: So, Sunday was your day off and it was mostly focused on church?
KFS: Yes, yes.
TF: Were the services there just in the morning or did they go all day long?
KFS: It went, uh, in the mornings, Sunday School and the 11 o’clock service and then they had
what they called BTU, at 6 o’clock, and then they’d have night service.
TF: So, did you go home in the afternoon for supper and come back for the evening service?
KFS: I didn’t do it always.
TF: Sometimes?
KFS I had a best friend-she, she was married and she had a husband in the service and she had a
car so when I lived, I lived with her mother and father when I first came to Oklahoma City.
TF: And you could ride with them?
KFS: Yes. I’d ride with her.
TF: So do you, do you remember what year when you moved back to Oklahoma City after being
away?
KFS: 1966, December.
TF: And do you remember noticing changes when you came back? Or did it feel pretty much the
same?
KFS: I didn’t-it felt pretty much the same.
TF: What changes have you noticed since the sixties that really, like, what buildings do you
really miss? And what things do you think have changed about the community?
KFS: I don’t miss any buildings, cause I guess I didn’t focus on it back there then. But they’ve
made a lot of progress, as far as architectural growth. And everything has been for the better.
TF: Do you still live on the Northeast side?
KFS: Yes.
TF: What neighborhood do you live in now?
KFS: Say what?
TF: What neighborhood do you live in now?
KFS: I live in Park Estates.
TF: And is Park Estates where you raised your children too? Is that where you first, when you
moved back?
KFS: Yes.
TF: When you first came back?
KFS: When we first came back, well when I first came back that’s when I lived with one sister
and then I moved, next, that’s when I moved on Euclid first, and then I moved with the oldest
sister on Jordan, 19 th and Jordan, and then I found an apartment and I lived, uh that’s 13 th and
Walnut. That building is still there. But it’s vacant. And then, I moved to Garden Oaks. Now, I’m
renting during that time. Garden Oaks on 14 th Street Place. And…
TF: Was that a house instead of an apartment?
KFS: It was a house, and it was a second house, I think that was Thanridge, it’s the last block on
14 th Street Place, but I lived the second house from the West, on the North side of the street.
Then I bought the home that I am now. And I moved in there February or March, 1972. So I
been there since that time.
TF: When you were renting in Garden Oaks, about how long did you live in that neighborhood?
Just a couple years?
KFS: See I moved there in 1969. It was August or September.
TF: So 2 or 3 years?
KFS: And I moved away, it was either February or March of 1972.
TF: What do you remember about Garden Oaks back then? The feel of the neighborhood?
KFS: Well, it’s deteriorated now. It was better, it looked better back there then.
TF: What about Park Estates? Did it seem like a similar kinda neighborhood at the time when you
moved? Or was it a nicer neighborhood?
KFS: No, it was a nicer neighborhood. At the time.
TF: So, were you happy to finally buy a home in the neighborhood you really liked? And you’ve
been there ever since?
KFS: Oh, yes. Yes.
TF: Nice. And, the apartments you lived in on 13 th and Walnut, was that the first place you ever
got to live by yourself?
KFS: Yes.
TF: And what was that like? Who else lived in the apartment building? Was it a lot of single
women there, or who lived there?
KFS: [Overlapped by above questions] It was nice. It was happy. (Clear now) No, when I first
moved there, it was a lot of military families, husband and wife. In fact, the apartment I moved
in, they were being transferred somewhere and they were having to move, so that’s the
apartment I moved in. But it was pretty much, it was mostly, I hate to say this, but it was mostly
whites there.
TF: Really?
KFS: That I knew. But then, the apartment manager and her son, lived in an apartment. But
somebody said that the manager, they had a falling out, so she moved out. And they didn’t
have a manager. An apartment I guess, the owner, was just hiring anybody. An apartment,
that’s why I had to get out of there, cause apartments start going down.
TF: Oh, ok.
KFS: And some young fella, moved into her apartment. It got where, like on a Saturday, we’d be
we’d get up in the morning and I’d catch the bus, and we’d go downtown. And we’d shop and
then we’d go to a movie. We’d go to the library and let them pick out whatever amount of
books they wanted. And then we’d go maybe shopping or we’d end up in a movie and then
we’d catch the bus and come home. And I remember this one day, we walked in and we could
hear loud music, and they were out there, these grown people out there, just took over the
hallway and entryway and that’s when I said, “I need to get out of here with my children,” so
that’s when I started looking to get out.
TF: Yeah, that’s not a great environment for-how many kids did you have at that point?
KFS: Two. I only had, Gina is the older one by almost two years, and my son.
TF: Do you remember which library you took them to?
KFS: It was on 3 rd and Robison, downtown.
TF: And that would have been in the late sixties, probably?
KFS: That was in, I worked downtown for small business administration when I came back, I
didn’t go to Tinker. I worked for a small business administration and when I first started
working, that was on 3 rd and it was a post office. The building is still there, but I think it’s uh,
something that takes up the whole block on 3 rd Street and Robinson. And then, it wasn’t too
many months that I worked there, it’s months, and they moved across on the Southeast corner,
a small business administration moved in that, and the library was right in front of it, and they
were on the Southeast corner, and the library was on the Northeast corner of Robinson and 3 rd .
TF: Do you remember which movie theaters you took your kids to, or where you took them
shopping?
KFS: I don’t remember, but it was on Main Street. They used to have stores on Main street, and
they had a theater, I know it was one that I went to, but I don’t recall the name of it.
TF: Was it Center, maybe? Center theater?
KFS: It was on 3 rd . And it was, I know it was facing North. And that’s when they had Crest, and all
of those, you know, stores down-Virginia Dares. [Both laugh]
TF: What’d you buy at Virginia Dares?
KFS: I think I would buy my children clothes, I think, down there.
TF: Was it pretty reasonably priced?
KFS: Yes. Yes, and they were nice quality, the clothes.
TF: A lot of families shopped there?
KFS: I imagine so, I don’t know.
TF: When you first moved to Oklahoma City in ’55, the town was segregated and when you
came back, it was starting to desegregate. Did you notice the difference?
KFS: Oh, yes.
TF: What kinds of things did you notice? Like, could you not go downtown before and it was
easier later?
KFS: Oh, no. You could go downtown, you could go to the stores, but you just couldn’t go to the
restaurants, or you couldn’t stay in hotels-you know, if you were black.
TF: What about parks? Was it pretty easy to find parks that your kids could play in in the city?
KFS: Parking space?
TF: Parks, for them to play in. For the children.
KFS: Oh! Well you could go, uh, to the zoo-but I don’t think I started taking my children, I don’t
think I went to the zoo when I, you know before I got married when I lived here before. I don’t
recall going to the zoo-not here. But I used to go in Tulsa when I grew up. But um, when I
moved where I am, cause it’s right near the zoo, so I start, you know, taking my children to the
zoo.
TF: Were there neighborhood parks there, too? Were there any neighborhood playgrounds for
the kids?
KFS: Well, I remembered when they opened up, um, oh what is it, it was right there on Spring
Lake and see I’m just one street over from Spring Lake. Uh, many years ago I understand it was
segregated, but my children-when they grew up, they went to that Spring Lake Park.
TF: Okay.
KFS: It was, uh, Spring Lake Amusement Park.
TF: You took them there sometimes-or did they go on their own?
KFS: When they got older, they went on they own. But when they were little, you know I didn’t
let them go in it alone.
TF: Did you go back to St. John’s church when you moved back, or did you go to a different
church?
KFS: No, I went to a different church because when my daughter was ready to start
kindergarten, cause they were in a nursery, and uh, that’s how I ended up going to Ebenezer.
Because, at that time, that was before I moved to my house, that’s when I lived in an
apartment-when she started. And somebody had told me that, the lady that was keeping her,
keeping them, told me that the lady across the street-her daughter was starting first grade-
kindergarten! And I could continue to take her to Mrs. Smallwood, and she would go to school,
the woman would take her to school and it was a Culbertson in the medical complex which is
not-and that-uh, girl was going to Culbertson. And I took off work and I took her there and I
enrolled her, and I took her back to the babysitter and went to work. And it was a man that was
over the transfer desk. And he called me at work and told me Gina couldn’t go there cause she
was out of the district. See, I didn’t know anything about Oklahoma City then, you know,
pertaining to children. And, I was explaining the situation to him and he told me there was a
school in the neighborhood which was, uh, Lincoln, that I didn’t know of-never seen Lincoln.
But when I walk down Walnut, I would see-lookin East, I remembered I would see a school sign.
But I was so upset, he didn’t listen to me. Said, “No, she can’t go to Culbertson because it’s
overcrowded.” He was very rude. And I remember I left my desk and I went into the bathroom
and I was just crying cause I didn’t know what to do. And I said, “Well Gina just can’t go to
kindergarten.” I didn’t see where she could go. And, then when I was telling Mrs. Smallwood-I
cried, I had to ride the bus, and I had to go ride the bus, pick them up, and get to another street
when the bus came back and take them home. Now that’s over here, almost to I-35. Where I
had to go-between 23 rd and 20 th . And, when I picked them up, I cried all the way over there and
I sat down and huggin them and they were upset and finally I said, “I’m gonna get up and walk
down walnut and find that school sign.” And that’s what I did. And I walked down and I saw the
sign, and I followed it. Then I saw a church, no I saw the school, then I saw the church. And it
was the nursery there, it had a sign. And they were still open and I walk down in the basement.
And I was talking to the lady-explained the situation-so I sorted out where I could put them in
the daycare there and they would take Gina to school cause it was right across. And so when I
did that, she invited me to attend Ebenezer. And that’s how that started-I changed churches.
Because the busses didn’t run on Sundays, so I couldn’t go to St. John’s anyway.
TF: So, the kids went to Lincoln all the way through elementary? Or did desegregation-I know
the bussing started happening with the new school plans, did they have to change schools?
KFS: Something, I think they closed Lincoln. And, no, that’s not right. They didn’t close Lincoln
then. That’s when I moved from the apartment to Garden Oaks. And so, she went to
kindergarten at Garden Oaks. First grade. So she went to, I mean uh, Lincoln. And then she
went to Garden Oaks. To the-well when she was in the fourth grade, she spent the fourth
grade-one semester in the fourth grade. They, then they put her in the fifth grade. So she
spent, made the two grades in one year. And then, my son went to first grade-kindergarten and
first grade, I think-at Garden Oaks. And then we moved where we are now. We moved in the
year, within the year, but what I did-my friend was living in Garden Oaks so-I was working at
Southeast High School then-so I take them in the morning and drop them by my friend house
that still lived in Garden Oaks and then they would go to school with her kids and then I’d pick
them up in the evening until school was out that year. And then they started going to, uh, by
this time Gina was in the sixth grade, so she started going to Eisenhower. And my son started
going to Britton, I think it was Britton Elementary. And there was bussing.
TF: That’s really far from here!
KFS: Umm-hmm. Umm-Hmm. And when he got to be fifth grade, he went to uh, wasn’t Martin
Luther King, I can’t think on the 48 th where Martin Luther King is now. They had a fifth-grade
center, so he went there on the fifth grade and then he went to Eisenhower, they both finished
middle school in Eisenhower. And then they went to John Marshall for high school.
TF: And that was bussing too then.
KFS: Umm-hmm.
TF: And do you remember when that was? Would that be in the seventies? When was that?
KFS: Gina graduated in ’79 and he graduated in ’82.
TF: Do you feel like they got a good education?
KFS: I feel like-in John Marshall? Yes. And I know-I felt like they got a pretty good education.
TF: They did?
KFS: You know, at Lincoln and Garden Oaks and Eisenhower. Well, I had a problem with one
teacher at Eisenhower-for Gina. And so, I had to go out there with her, so it wasn’t all peaches
at, uh, Eisenhower.
TF: And you were doing all this as a single mother.
KFS: As a single mother.
TF: It sounds like it was challenging, there wasn’t a lot of a support system apart from friends in
the community, the church.
KFS: Well my mother and father lived in Sand Springs, but I still got a lot of support. And then
the-when I-when I joined Ebenezer, that pastor and his wife were very supportive cause, during
that time, back in 1969, I started back to school. And they were so nice, cause they would-the
kids were still in day care, and on Monday nights, I went to Central State, and they would take
them home with them after school and feed them, and Reverend Hill would cut my son’s hair-
never chores or anything. And I did that that semester, and then the spring semester, cause I
was trying to graduate with my masters in the summer, and I went to OU on Thursday nights.
But I was going to take them home then-and because the professor didn’t give you a break, you
know, he just-you go straight through and he lets you out early. That first night-I know I’m
getting off the subject-but I hadn’t moved, I was still living in Garden Oaks, and I didn’t know
how to come from that way.
TF: Yeah.
KFS: And what happened the first night, no, yeah-the first night-I ended up in Midwest City or
somewhere and it was dark, and the kids-I took the kids home. But I had told them to stay in
the back bedroom. I had a TV back there. And I was wandering around somewhere, and I finally
found my way out. And when I opened that door, I could smell gas in my house. Ooh, that
scared me. see, God took care of us. And after then, I’d make sandwiches and stuff and leave it
in the fridgerator so they could-you know-if they got hungry, and I cautioned them. You know,
they were obedient kids-that was a blessing. “Don’t go near the stove.” So, that’s what they
did. And that’s how I finished that year.
TF: Do you remember where Reverend Hill’s house was?
KFS: Yes.
TF: Was it right by the church?
KFS: He was, his house I think was on [speaking to Gina, who has been in the room the whole
time]-Gina, do you remember when, when you used to go over to Reverend Hill’s before they
built this other house on 9 th street? Do you remember where it was? You don’t remember
where it was.
Gina: I remember where Ms. Kemp lived.
KFS: Yeah, okay. But you didn’t stay with Ms. Kemp.
G: I know, but I-I don’t remember where Reverend Hill-you know, I know it was in this area.
TF: Off 9 th ?
KFS: Yeah, it was somewhere around here.
G: Oh, really?
KFS: Then they moved, the house that they built was on 9 th -through when they died-was on 9 th
and Kate. That was their new house. But the other one, I can’t remember. Cause I didn’t go
there that much, just dropping you guys off.
G: Yeah, I don’t remember. I remember what Reverend Hill used to say when we would watch
Tom Jones.
TF: What would he say?
G: He would say, “Sin, sin, just that sin, sin!”
All: [Laugh]
G: “Let’s watch something else!” Tom Jones would be dancing, you know. We’d watch
Bewitched and then Tom Jones.
KFS: Oh I can imagine that…
G: We could watch Bewitched, but Tom Jones was doing all that jiggling.
TF: That’s funny. Do you remember Mrs. Hill’s first name?
KFS: Harriet.
TF: Harriet Hill. They sound like a…
KFS: Wonderful people.
TF: Um, when you-if you think back to that time, if you could think of one location in all of the
Northeast side that sticks out to you as the most memorable place, what would it be?
KFS: [Long pause] I guess it would be Ebenezer. I can’t think of another place.
G: Well, we used to go-for me-I think the Walcourt where we lived, where we first lived when
we first came back after…
KFS: That was the Walcourt?
G: Yes-on 13 th and Walnut.
KFS: That’s still there.
G: Yes, it’s still there. I think that always is a memory, is a memorable place for me.
KFS: Yeah, I don’t forget that building.
TF: Is that the apartment building?
KFS: Yeah, apartment building.
TF: We heard about the parties.
G: Oh really? There were parties there?
KFS: No. Oh, I was telling them-you know that Saturday we had been, you know, we would get
up and go to the library on Saturday morning-we’d go to a movie or go shopping and then we
came home and one afternoon we came and that’s when the manager had left and given
people her room. And then these other people left, and uh, Mr. Threats moved in there.
G: The Threats?
KFS: The Threats: T-H-R-E-A-T.
G: Oh my gosh
KFS: And this man [inaudible]
G: I know, I just met somebody-Mama!
KFS: Well he was in there, we came in, they were having a party, they weren’t in their
apartment, they had loud music and-right out there when you walk in. And they had glasses, I
guess they were drinkin alcohol or something.
G: He’s a pastor now!
KFS: No that’s not the one.
All: [Laugh]
KFS: That’s not Allen Threat, they lived in the apartment, they lived where Delores lived, uh,
before Delores came. Delores Jackson lived right next to him and she used to watch you
sometimes, before Mrs. Hill started watching you. And the Threats, Allen Threat lived right next
door to us. He’s the one that’s the pastor in Arcadia.
G: I just interviewed him not too long ago.
KFS: Okay, well he’s..
G: I didn’t even know.
KFS: It’s his brother..
G: Okay.
KGS: That was out there partying, and that’s when I said, “I got to get out of here.”
G: Okay. Wow. Okay. That is amazing! It’s such a small world! But as far as, um, another
location, like, I don’t remember this school, you know, as a location.
KFS: I never had been to the school.
G: And then you, maybe there were other schools-I remember…
KFS: Paige, I worked at Paige.
G: Okay.
KFS: That was my first school.
G: Right. And then there was-I always remember the Douglas on uh, Martin Luther King
because my cousins all went to Douglas and they went to what is now Moon, but it was called
JFK. And I hear that JFK, or Robert Kennedy, actually came and commemorated that school.
TF: We got an interview about it this morning.
G: Did you, okay! So I remember that school because my cousins attended-all of my cousins
attended, you know, JFK, and then they went to Douglas. And, um, you know-I remember
Garden Oaks, you know, when we moved to Garden Oaks.
KFS: Yeah I told them about Garden Oaks.
G: That I remember. I think-memorable-we were a quiet family, you know, we didn’t, you know,
I just listened to-I didn’t learn about FM radio until I was like, in the third or fourth grade! I
didn’t even know there was a FM station! Right, and so, we were just a quiet family so there
weren’t a lot of um, I mean, church was a big part of our life. And so that’s-school and church,
libraries. And so that was a-that was how we spent our time, and then we would go to visit my
grandmother in, uh, Sand Springs. You know. I mean, as I grew up, Lincoln Park sticks out in my
memory as important because it was a place for young people to hang out and so that was
always-we wanted to go to Lincoln Park because you know, that’s-that’s where you hung out
and you’d see your friends who went to other schools and, um…
KFS: And you started going to Spring Lake Park-before it burned. I remember it burned.
G: Yes, Spring Lake-Spring Lake.
TF: When did it burn, do you remember?
KFS: I remember the night it burned, but I don’t remember what year.
G: I remember, uh, I don’t remember what year. I remember we could see it from our house.
KFS: Yeah, cause we…
G: We were back in Park Estate; I mean we were living in Park Estate.
KFS: Yeah, we were living on the next street.
G: Right.
TF: So it might have been in the seventies?
G: It was definitely in the seventies.
KFS: Seventies.
G: Yeah.
TF: Could you smell the smoke from your house?
G: Oh you could see it.
KFS: The blaze and everything.
G: Right. We used to see, at Spring Lake, every Fourth of July they would do-that’s where the
fireworks. And so we would stand on our corner-we could stand-all the kids in the
neighborhood would stand on the corner, and we would be jumping up and down and saying,
“That’s mine! That’s mine!” you know, as the-as they would go up. You know, “That’s mine!”
And so, that-I remember Spring Lake. And I remember-I remember the first time going to the
fair, and I remember going to Spring Lake. And I was always afraid of roller coasters-so I
remember those events, you know, I’m not going to get on the roller coaster. And it was
exciting to me because she was pretty strict and she wouldn’t let us go too many places
unchaperoned, and so a lot of my classmates and friends, they were accustomed, their parents
would let them go places and so we couldn’t go unless there was an adult going. And so that-
the first time I got to, um, go-it was pretty memorable cause I was probably pretty old. You
know, and so, you know…
TF: Do you remember the community reaction to Spring Lake Park burning down?
G: I think that people were sad. I don’t remember-I don’t remember how, uh, I would have
been more exposed to how kids felt.
TF: Right.
G: You know, I don’t know how adults felt about it burning. You know, it had been a segregated
amusement park for years and so it may not have meant, had the same significance to the
African American community that was now around it because it really did not play a real part in,
you know, the early development or our early economics or the early development of the
African American community. You know, it was there as the African American community grew
around it and Whites left. And so, I don’t think you would have gotten the same type-there was
not the emotional tie to it-not to certainly-not to her generation. Now, maybe if you talked to
people in my generation who were small at that time, and you know, they were living in that
community and this was part of their entertainment. They would probably, maybe have more
memories or emotional ties to it.
TF: It would be interesting to research if anyone ever talked about rebuilding it or not.
G: You know, I don’t think anyone did, but certainly when Metrotech came along, they did try
to capture, you know, some of the memorabilia-like there are, on the campus itself. So…
TF: Yeah.
G: Yeah, you know, sort of in memory of it.
TF: Yeah. So, um, Ebenezer Church. It sounds like it was a strong community space for you all,
for your family.
G: Yes.
TF: What do you remember about the church that-how it made you feel when you went there?
KFS: Oh, it made me feel good. I still enjoy going to church. [[Laugh]]
TF: Has it remained the same in many ways?
KFS: Well, Ebenezer it-that, uh signs.
G: The Baptist signs.
TF: Right, the original building is not…
KFS: It’s there. It’s part of the…
G: No, it’s gone.
KFS: No.
G: They tore it down.
KFS: When did they tear it down?
G: Mm-hmm it’s not there-the campus, where the church was located…
KFS: Oh! They…
G: They tore the church down.
KFS: Oh, I thought it was still part of it.
G: Mm-mm, Lincoln School is.
KFS: Oh, okay.
G: That’s stayed.
KFS: Oh, okay.
TF: So that must have [interrupted]
KFS: Cause that was part of that complex.
TF: Yeah, that would be hard to see that-the church moved, right?
KFS: That’s on 12 th . Yeah, they rebuilt when they were, they relocated-they relocated to 50 th .
On 50 th , between Prospect and Lincoln.
TF: Was it hard to move?
KFS: I didn’t.
TF: To, like, see the congregation...
KFS: I didn’t follow them at the new church.
TF: At that part?
G: You, Ebenezer’s between…
KFS: Oh, Ebenezer’s not there!
G: Kelley…
KFS: I’m thinking about Shiloh. That’s where I went from Ebenezer. It’s on Kelley.
G: Kelley.
KFS: It’s a big brown church!
TF: Oh, okay.
KFS: On Kelley just before 36 th .
G: Just, yeah, just…
KFS: Yeah, that’s where Ebenezer is! I left Ebenezer before they moved there and went to
Shiloh. That’s the one that’s on 50 th .
G: Right, right, tight.
TF: So, is there a building or a place or a business that you wish was still here that’s gone now?
KFS: I don’t think so. Huh, I don’t think so.
TF: What-Are there new things that you really like? Newer things in this part of town? And I
mean by new I mean the past-since the eighties or so.
KFS: Yeah.
TF: Doesn’t have to be brand new.
KFS: Hmmm.
TF: Or changes you like?
KFS: I guess I just look at them as old. There’s nothing that stands out.
G: You know, you…
KFS: I just like the, you know, whatever they build-new buildings and businesses come in. I’m
just glad to see it.
TF: Do you feel like-still a good sense of community here or has it changed?
KFS: Not like-no. Uh, because I feel-in my area, the communities, they were-most of the ones of
my age are older, are gone in my neighborhood left. And the neighborhood is just not the same.
You know, I don’t communicate but with maybe a few families. And a few near. My next door
neighbor is new, and we’re pretty close. The ones that just surround me and the neighbor in
front-she died, and the next one died-you know, they’re not there anymore.
TF: Those changes happen in all communities, don’t they?
KFS: So I just-other than talking on the phone, you know, with some of the neighbors…
G: Did you, uh, before they finalized-did you talk about uh, like where on Jerry you used to live,
off 4 th street? That’s really what got everybody excited because you talked about- you gave me
a description.
KFS: When she lived in that little community on 4 th street and Rhode Island?
G: On 4 th and you were able to describe some of-yes.
TF: Yeah, would you describe that? I don’t think we’ve talked about that.
KFS: Okay. Uh, she lived-it was a little community, it was on 4 th and Rhode Island. And they
were, it was a church-a Reverend Church of God in Christ, right in that community. And I think
he owned most of those houses. That’s when-when they were small. And it was, the church was
set in here, and then the houses were around here. And Aunt Jerry was around here. But it was
a little small house.
G: Like, how many rooms, or…?
KFS: Living room, I guess it was a bedroom, a kitchen back here. I didn’t go all over the house,
but I went-it was a little small bedroom, I remember- on the North, Southwest corner. It was
kinda oblong. Aunt Jerry would tell you better. But I remember when my grandmother came up
here. She was-came up here to see the doctor and I went back there to see her. Cause she was
staying a few days.
TF: Were all the houses real close together?
KFS: Yeah, they were right near close together.
TF: Small yards?
KFS: Yes. And that’s how Aunt Jerry met, uh, Edna’s family. You know, which is off-my
grandmother’s half-sister's offspring.
G: Okay.
KFS: The Washington’s-Mira and Shirley, and all. That’s how she met Edna, cause Edna lived in
there.
G: Okay. Okay, okay.
TF: So that little housing complex is not there anymore?
KFS: No, it’s not there.
TF: Where was it-4 th and what?
KFS: 4 th and Rhode Island.
TF: And it was centered on a church?-Interesting.
KFS: Yeah, there was a church there and I-I think, I know, that the house Aunt Jerry lived in, the
pastor lived in there.
G: What about streetcars, or what were there…?
KFS: Well see, that’s before my time cause Aunt Jerry came, you know, early-and Aunt Velma. I
didn’t come here until 1955.
G: Okay. And you worked at Tinker Air Force Base…
TF: Yeah, we talked about how she got to work…
KFS: Yeah, but I didn’t live with them. I lived on 10 th and uh, whatever-Laird.
TF: Well, was there anything that we didn’t ask you that you wish you had been asked about?
KFS: No, not especially. And I remember-I remember on Walnut, it was a lot of, uh, businesses
cause see we lived on 10 th , and I’d walk down-it was a laundromat. It was a-oh I’m having a
senior moment-what is this place that you take things and you re-sell them?
TF: Oh, like a thrift store?
KFS: Not a thrift store.
TF: Consignment?
KFS: It was some kind of Goodwill, or something-Salvation Army, or something on that street,
on the West side. And then it was a, oh my goodness, what… It’s not a thrift store, you see
them all over. Pawn shop!
TF: Oh, okay.
KFS: Cause that’s where I got that case with all the Bible tapes. I couldn’t [Unintelligible]. I
remember it cost like, thirty dollars!
TF: Wow.
KFS: But anyway, it was somewhere near there, next door or something, was a Goodwill or
something. And then, across over here was a freight place. And I’d go down there and get canned
goods and detergent. That’s what [Unintelligible] took that candy. He had that candy in his
pockets. We got ready to go out and he had little jeans on, and I looked-he wanted that candy
and I said, “no, you can’t have this candy,” cause I didn’t buy nothing like that. And I looked and
I saw the-a foreign object in his back pocket, and I say, “what is you doin?” And I pulled out a
candy bar. Of course, he put his hand back there, eyes got big. And I made him come back and
give it to the man and tell him he’s sorry. Oh, he cried and he cried. And I remember the man
saying, “Son, your momma is right.”
TF: So none of those businesses are there anymore?
KFS: No, they all gone.
TF: Everybody drives everywhere now, too, you said were walking at the time?
KFS: Yeah, walking.
G: Cause she didn’t drive when she first…
KFS: No, I’d walk. I didn’t have a car then.
TF: What year did you get your license, do you remember? Was it after…
KFS: 1968.
TF: After you came back to Oklahoma?
KFS: Umm-hmm.
TF: Yeah, you don’t need it in New York.
KFS: No.
TF: Do you remember having to go to the DMV, where it was? To get your license? Was it in the
neighborhood or was it farther out in the city somewhere?
KFS: You know, I don’t know. I remember I went to a driving school.
TF: Where was that?
KFS: Well, it wasn’t a driving school, it was Gale Cable-a car dealer on May Avenue.
TF: Gave some lessons?
KFS: And I went and bought a car that I couldn’t drive.
TF, G: [Laugh]
KFS: And they gave me, I had to pay, but they gave me some lessons. And he took me to get
the-I don’t know if I had bought a car-I don’t think I had bought a car-cause he took me to take
the test.
TF: Okay. May and what? Do you remember what street? Was it-
KFS: Huh?
TF: Where on May, how far up? Do you remember?
KFS: I think it was on the West side of the street. Gale Cable-I don’t remember, but it was on
May. It wasn’t down, you know, further South.
TF: Right.
KFS: It was up North May.
TF: Right, okay.
KFS: Somewhere on North May.
TF: That’s quite some service, taking you to get your driver’s license.
All: [Laugh]
KFS: I imagine I didn’t pay that much for the car anyway.
TF: It’s been real fun talking to you, do you know anyone else you think we should interview?
KFS: Well, one of my friends was gonna come with me, you?
G: No, I was just telling Avis.
KFS: Oh, there’s Avis. Did you get the information that I was running off, saying things?
TF: Oh yeah, we’ve got some good stuff here.
KFS: Okay.
TF: What, is your friend gonna come talk to us sometime?
KFS: Well she was, she told me last week she was coming. But she had something else, and I…
TF: Okay.
KFS: Think she’s on the 30 th -what’s next week?
G: Next week is the 20 th .
KFS: She might come then. Cause she was excited, she came last week.
TF: We can catch up with her later.
KFS: Okay.
TF: What’s her name again?
KFS: Her name is, uh, Odessa Curry.
TF: Okay. We’ll find her.
KFS: Okay.
TF: You’ll help us find her, right?
KFS: Yeah, and…
TF: Thank you.
KFS: And then Eulden, I’ll tell I saw Joyce Henderson last week and I was telling her cause, you
know, she worked with Clara. She’s much younger than I. But she says she had to go to, uh,
Nebraska for AKA convention or something this weekend.
TF: Odessa Curry and Joyce?
KFS: And Joyce Henderson.
TF: I feel like I’ve met Joyce.
KFS: Okay!
TF: Thank you so much!
KFS: Alright then!
TF: It’s been…-audio stops.