Description:
Gwendolyn Irons McNeely and Reginald Irons talk about life in Northeast Oklahoma City.
Transcript:
Interview subjects: Gwendolyn Irons McNeely & Reginald Irons
Interviewer: Rachel Jackson
*additional person present: Ebony?
Gwendolyn Irons McNeely: Okay, my name is Gwendolyn Irons McNeelys.
Rachel Jackson: Okay
GIM: Born and raised in Oklahoma City on May 15th 1951 at Edwards Hospital.
RJ: Edwards Hospital?
GIM: Yes
RJ: Excellent. And you Sir?
Reginald Irons: My name is Reginald Irons and I was born here in Oklahoma City back in ‘53 on February the 28th.
RJ: Okay
RI: And I was born in Edwards Hospital
RJ: Wow, at the historic hospital
GIM: Yes
RI: Yeah
RJ: Okay, so, what brought your family to Oklahoma?
GIM: My father worked at Tinker Field.
RJ: Okay
GIM: He had actually got his degree from Langston University but then right after he graduated he got called up to World War II. And so when he came back he taught school for a few years, but then, well I guess it actually was known first of all as Douglass Field, before it was even Tinker Field it was call Douglas Field, so but then they were trying to give GI guys an opportunity for employment out there at Tinker. And he worked there for close to 30 some odd years as a scheduler out there. But that’s what brought him to Oklahoma City was Tinker Field, his job, employment.
RJ: Okay
GIM: And then like I said when he and my mom married January 18th 1950 he needed, you know, to find a home here in Oklahoma City, cause he had a home in Langston but of course working at Tinker Field he wanted to live here in the City. And so like I said we lived off of Grand Boulevard and Success Street there for from I guess when they got married in 1950 until they moved in 1958 to a bigger house. ‘Cause at that time it was three of us in a two bedroom house with three kids, it would get a little tight so
RJ: yes
RI & RJ: [laughter]
GIM: they bought a larger home, which actually that home on NE 15th is where I currently live.
RJ: Oh you still live there in your childhood home?
GIM: Yes NE 15th
RJ: NE 15th
Ebony: That’s amazing.
RJ: What's the address?
GIM: 1129 NE 15th
RJ: 1129
GIM: Uh huh, just right off of 15th and Kelly.
RJ: Okay
GIM: Corpus Christi Church was there when we moved in, it’s still there. We attended school at Culbertson, which is no longer there, but it was just right there by 13th and Laudy.
RI: Right.
GIM: It’s now I think a rehabilitation center, it’s right across from that Broadway house, but it was Culbertson Elementary School. And then what used to be just right up the street there on 10th was Moon Junior High, so ‘course we went to Moon Junior High School.
RJ & E: That’s amazing.
GIM: Yeah - so from there on [...] desegregation was coming into play. And so it really was the strangest thing that we lived in the same house - at that time on 18th, 732 NE 18th street - and I went to Northeast but due to the desegregation my brother and younger sister had to go to Classen.
RI: That was at Northeast in the 9th grade.
GIM: Yeah the one year.
RI: Right, one year. And then they started the finger planning and I was sent to Classen
RJ: Okay
Ri: where I currently teach.
RJ: Okay now I’m going to back it up, [aside] Classen yes
GIM: [laughter]
RJ: I’m going to back it up a minute because I heard you talking to Mr. Shaw about your family buying farmland?
RI & GIM: Yes
RJ: And that’s maybe the earliest anchor here in Oklahoma, was the family that bought farmland?
RI & GIM: Yes
RJ: Okay, and where did they buy it?
RI: In Logan County
RJ: Logan?
RI: Yeah, just outside of Langston
RJ: Okay
RI: and yeah we’ve had cattle
RJ: Okay
RI: on that property. And my dad bought it from a man in ‘46.
RJ: Wow
RI: Well, no, I’m sorry, he bought it in ‘50.
RJ: Okay
Ri: And then he went and got married and moved to Oklahoma City, because he was living in Langston at that time. But yeah we still own that property, and we had at one point almost 30 head of cattle
RJ: Wow
RI: and that was kind of what my dad used to pay for our college
RJ: [laughter]
RI: cause all of my siblings, we all graduated from college. I think 3 […] 4 of us […] 3 of us graduated from Langston University.
RJ: Wow
RI: All his siblings graduated from Langston also.
GIM: Uh huh, all seven.
RI: So 7 of them.
RJ: When was your father born?
RI: He was born 1913.
GIM: 1913
RJ: 1913. In Langston?
RI: Mmhm, yeah he was actually born in the property next door to the one we owned, cause that property actually belonged to his father. So the cabin that he was born in was next door, so he bought the property right next to the property he was born in. Cause as kids we used to go out there, cause he used to maintain it for my grandfather, and rural pear trees and so forth, so we’d go shake pear trees off the pear trees into the back of the truck. And there was a beautiful spring that just ran right down the back of where the log cabin was that he was born in. So he bought the property next door. 5:00
RJ: And when did your grandfather - do you know, was he born in Indian territory? Or did he come from somewhere else?
RI: He came from Tennessee.
RJ: From Tennessee.
RI: Tennessee, yeah. His stepdad -
GIM: In 1885 - born in ‘85.
RJ: Okay
RI: right - brought him from Tennessee. He was 7 years old when he was brought to Langston.
RJ: Wow, okay
GIM: And actually my father tells the story that he actually went from Tennessee to Texas. But then there was an occasion where something happened in the town they were living in and they were killing all males - grown and children. So Mr. Neil bought him up by night - him and his mother - up to Oklahoma territory to save his life.
RJ: Thank God
GIM: Yeah
RJ: Yeah
GIM: So he knows - he knew none of his - if he had any relatives he didn’t know any of them, so he knew nobody. All he had was Mr. Neil and his mother. And her name was Emma.
RJ: Okay
GIM: Emma Neil
RJ: And then what about your momma? You said she was from Guthrie?
RI: Yes
RJ: Okay
RI: Went to Faver
GIM: Faver High School
RI: Mhmm, so that’s where she was born was in Guthrie. And just like my sister said they met, got married and came to Oklahoma City.
RJ: Oklahoma City, alright
RI: Yes
RJ: So now we’re back in Oklahoma City.
GIM: Yes
RJ: And we were talking about […] desegregation and being kind of in that time before, being in school, before all the schools were still segregated. So, no we’ll jump back to that.
GIM: Well, I guess there again, and we didn’t - I didn’t - realize, that you know because there again, Edwards was a Negro school so that’s where I went for a couple years. As our parents moved in ‘58 so I wound up transferring to Cublertsons, that’s where most of us went. But the desegregation I guess came about I guess in the 60’s after Alfanso Dow’s father - Mr. A. L. Daw - kind of helped to try to integrate Northeast High School cause he wanted his son to take Latin because he wanted his son to be a doctor and and they didn’t offer latin at Douglas so. I think the Northeast was integrate there are around ‘62, Northeast high school.
RJ: Okay
GIM: So I didn’t go till ‘66. That was the year I was going to tenth grade. Cause Moon Junior High actually went seventh, eight, and ninth grade, so I didn’t have to worry about that move until the tenth grade. And then there again my father knew they offered more college preparatory classes at Northeast cause he wanted me to go to college like he did. So of course that’s the reason why I went to Northeast. But that was a rude awakening because at that point I had never gone to an integrated school where I had gone to school with the white classmates.
RJ: Right
GIM: I guess it was kind of a rude awakening for me because I had I guess my first experience actually with dealing as a teenager with white teachers - and I know I had been blessed to be a part of honor society when I was at Moon, and when I got to Northeast, you know still trying my best. And I know my first experience of understanding that somebody had a problem with my skin color was when my English teacher, I had turned in an assignment on paper and she gave me a C and I asked her what I need to do because I had looked in comparison to some of the other kids who got A’s, and she told me she wasn’t gonna give me anything any better than that because of the color of my skin. And so I went home and that was kind of a [laughter] rude awakening. My mother said, “that’s alright [laughter] you take that C and just turn it into A anyway.” So, I did manage and I did manage to make honor society, but that was my first experience. But before then, before we even understood what we were doing, we weren’t with the [unintelligible] but like I said we started, my aunt Lillian Oliver got us involved with the NAACP with the insistence of Mrs. Luper ‘cause she wanted me, the kids, and my aunt - my dad’s sister - she didn’t have any children of her own.
RJ: What was your aunt’s name again?
GIM: Lillian Oliver
RI: Oliver
RJ: Lillian Oliver
GIM: Yeah this is a picture of her, this is her and her husband. She had no children of her own. That was her 25th wedding anniversary, I found that picture.
RJ: Yes
GIM: But she was the reason - real reason I guess
RJ: You look like your aunt.
GIM: - we were instrumental because she was the educator. She and Claire Luper went to school together and Langston, because Mrs. Luper was from Grayson, Oklahoma. And so they went to school together, they were club sisters, they belonged to a club called “The Amigas Club.”
RI: “Amigas Club,” yeah
RJ: Okay
GIM: And so they were real good friends with ‘course Mrs. Luper, Nancy Davis - ‘cause they all went Langston - Nancy Randolf Davis, Lady Ruth Hunter. So these were ladies that were very close, it was all educators, and so they were all involved with working with Mrs. Luper and the NAACP youth center up here on Martin Luther King and 24th.
RJ: Is that the Civil Rights Center now? The, ah -
RI: Well, it was called the Freedom Center.
RJ: The Freedom Center, that’s right, the Freedom Center
RI: Yeah
GIM: Yeah, yeah. So that’s where we met every Monday night. And like I said that’s 10:00 where, you know when we had started with all the sit-ins and so forth my Aunt Lillian would just come by and pick us up. And she started out with the two of us because - we weren’t with the Maryland, Luper and them and the city down in Katz Drug Store in ‘58 - but we started that next year. Like I said I guess I was 8 and he would have been 66666666 [laughter]
RJ: [laughter]
GIM: so, at that time. But we actually, like I said, during the years remember us going to places, like we used to be called Wedgewood Park - ‘course it’s gone - but Wedgewood Park.
RJ: Where was it?
GIM: Where Whitewater is now
RJ: [annoyed sound/sigh] Okay
GIM: Yeah they tore it down, Whitewater’s out there now.
RJ: Okay
GIM: Springlake Park, it was an amusement park - now that’s Metrotech up on Springlake Drive
RJ: Yes
GIM: So they tore down but it was Springlake Amusement Center. And then there were several movie theaters, ‘cause we couldn’t go into any of the movie theaters in Oklahoma City until the late sixties.
RJ: Which ones did you go to?
GIM: The Jewel Theater
RJ: On 4th?
GIM: Uhuh. And then there was one [...] I think my mother was used to using one in Guthrie, I can’t remember the name of it though, but there was one in Guthrie that minorities could go to, but I can’t remember the name of it right now. But you know, there again, that was kind of - our involvement was because of Mrs. Luper and my aunt Lillian Oliver. In fact up there on there at the Freedom Center they have a monument there in front and her pictures is one of the ones up there.
RJ: Your aunt?
GIM: Uh huh, Lillian Olvier
RJ: Wow, that’s wonderful.
GIM: Yep, so that was our initiation into the Civil Rights. And I’m not sure we actually understood what we were doing, but we have 5 siblings and all 5 of us were involved. And my younger sisters - Jaclyn and Carolyn - they were on the backside of it, so things had kind of started evolving at that time. [laughter] ‘Cause let’s see, one is ‘59 the other is ‘56, so they were on the back end of it. So the three of us were the main ones really, because I think most of the sit-ins and the marches were ‘58 to ‘64. So we were at that time for most, you know, she used us [laughter]
RJ: Yes
GIM: to participate in the different marches.
RJ: Now what do you remember of it, Reggie?
RI: Well I remember coming home after a march and I was telling my mother that they wouldn’t let us eat. And I thought, you know, that was I guess unusual, not sure how old I was, but I just remember telling her because I was disappointed that they wouldn't let us eat. So apparently it was one of the restaurants that did not serve blacks at that time. And so yeah, I remember you know several marches and participating in with Mrs. Luper. And we did a lot of things to try to and raise money to build a Freedom Center.
RJ: Oh my gosh
RI: And so I brought this, because back then a lot of people smoked
GMI: [laughter] Yeah
RI: and so we sold ash trays like this, and so this was [...]
RJ: Crazy
RI: Yeah. [laughter]
RJ: What is at the bottom of it? That design? Is it ah -
RI: It’s -
RJ: Let me look at it -
RI: Let’s see it’s a white hand and a black hand
RJ:: oh it’s two people, a white hand and a black hand
RI: Yeah
RJ: holding the torch of freedom basically.
RI: Right, yeah, right, yeah
GMI: Right, yeah
RJ: that’s wonderful. I have never seen one of these.
RI & GMI: [laughter]
RI: Yeah, there’s probably not a lot around. I kept a lot of the history.
RJ: It would have to be in a museum somewhere someday.
RI: [laughter]
E: Yes
RI: Yeah, we sold a lot and that’s one of the things that I’m real concerned about is the Freedom Center. ‘Cause Ms. Luper spent so much time and effort to try and provide a place where we could go to talk about what we were going to do the rallies and things like that that we were gonna participate in. And so I drove by the facility - oh a couple weeks ago - and yeah it was pretty upset about the way it looks now. And I feel like, you know, that’s something that really needs to be preserved, because all the hard work Ms. Luper, and Ms. Davis, and Ms. Hunter, that all the folks who were back then trying to work so hard to create a place where we could go and prepare for rallies or prepare for trips that we took to New York and Massachusetts for the conventions, because we had NAACP conventions around, and so we raised money for that too.
RJ: Yes
RI: Like I said we sold quite a bit. And as my sister was saying about the meetings we would have Monday evenings, we’d go and we’d and we’d sing those songs to get ourselves energized.
RJ: What did you sing?
RI: Well I mean, it was -
GMI: “We Shall Overcome”
RI: Yeah, we sang just numbers - songs - that were to keep us strong and keep us involved
GMI: Not gonna let them turn us around [laughter]
RI: Right, right, yeah.
[laughter]
RJ: So beautiful
RI: Yeah. Those were times where we had to, you know, really keep pushing, and not be turned around and not be turned back, and cause we knew what we were doing had meaning to it. And so we were working and so hard and fighting for our future, and future of our children and those who came after us, you know. And so she was just a firm leader, and she really, you know, just stayed strong no matter what, you know. And we had so many things that were going against us but she was just such a great leader, and one who just never showed. I mean she just didn’t show fear, never showed disappointment, but she kept fighting. Or even when, you know, things weren’t going as well she’d keep us fired up.
GMI: [laughter] Yeah
RI: And I can just remember singing those songs, getting in a circle, and holding hands
GMI: Oh, yeah
RI: and singing those songs, and just keep pushing forward. And so those are times that I’ll never forget.
GMI: [laughter]
RI: And especially the leadership that her and Ms. Davis - Nancy Davis - and we were there with her children, Calvin and Nancy Lin, her children were there. And of course Mrs. Luper’s children, Maryland and Calvin, were there. So yeah we just fed off each other, and encouraged each other, and stayed strong in the midst of adversity. And so we are just so thankful that God brought us this far in life and was there to push [...] and to encourage us to keep pushing no matter what just keeping going forward.
RJ: Yes
RI: And we see the outcomes of the dedication of those young people and especially the leadership that we had at that time.
RJ: Yes, just phenomenal
RI: Yeah
RJ: Makes me proud that it happened here.
RI: Yeah, yeah
GMI: Yeah
RJ: You know?
RI: Yeah
RJ: I can tell it makes Ebony [unintelligible?], look at that - yeah [laughter]
E: I’m just thinking [unintelligible - we weren't taught this?] in school, what would have been, you know if we were taught this
RI: Yeah. I know my sister was gonna tell a story - you can go ahead and tell them
GMI: [laughter]
RI: about the aunt and how you got to DC In ‘63. I think that’s an important story to tell.
GMI: Yeah, that was kind of my introduction to the real world because there again, you know, back then you just did what your parents told you to do. So when my aunt was a teacher at Garden Oaks Elementary school here in Oklahoma City, and that school year getting ready to start, they reassigned her - there again this is 1963 - resigned her to North Highland Elementary. But her principal was not very cooperative, and the week of the march on Washington that she had paid her way to go on bus - they had 2 busses from the Freedom Center going to the march on Washington - and her principal told her that if she wanted to have a job she’d stay here and prepare, even though she had been teaching
RJ: Oh gosh
GIM: for 13 years [...] 14 years [...] she was not going to allow her to have that week off. Now school hadn’t start, this was just the preparation of school starting, school hadn’t start, but she would not let her have that opportunity to have that week off to go. So in her place she sent me at age twelve to go [laughter] on a bus - and I was next to the youngest one. And in fact in Ms. Luper’s book there’s a picture here, this was the bus - two busses - from Oklahoma City, I was on 1 of those busses, and I was next to the youngest. Ms. Marry Poe, Ayanna’s mother - I think y’all know her as Ayanna - but Mrs. Poe was my chaperone. Ayanna was 11 and her sister was 13, and so I was 12 so we were the youngest ones to go. And so this was, my mother kept this for me, cause this was
RJ: So precious
GMI: [laughter] this was actually a souvenir I bought
RJ: Oh beautiful
GMI: in DC. T is now going to give me a hard time. I said now well you can’t be mean to me because I marched with Martin so
RJ & E: [laughter]
GMI: So, basically being twelve I don’t remember a lot about the trip except it was really
hot that year. And it was around that memorial and everybody was fighting to get as close to the water to try to, you know, ‘cause there was a nice breeze coming off the, sittin’ around the memorial, and believe it or not the craziest thing is that my mother didn’t let me wear any pants so I had on a dress, so I had to sit nicely in the grass.
GIM & RJ: [laughter]
GIM: I had that dress on, but that was ok, and to tell you about a mother’s love, now one of the dresses had a belt that I forgot to pack. That belt came to Washington DC by plane. Mr E. Melvin Porter, my mother knew Mr. Porter, Mr E. Melvin Porter came to my hotel room and said your mama sent your belt.
RJ: [laughter]
GIM: I said “Mama, you asked an attorney to bring my belt to one of my dresses so that i would not be out in public in Washington DC with a belt, a dress on without the matching belt”.
RJ: Oh my gosh
GIM: Yes I remember that, she’s told that story ‘bout I can’t have you just up there looking like anything, so she got Mr. Porter to fly that belt
RJ: Wow
GIM: ‘cause he flew, we went on the bus but he flew up there and that belt made it to my hotel room and to me. But, uh, it was uh, really, and i just remember it was a lot of speeches, and we were just, uh, the biggest thing I just remember was that it was just so many people, but Mrs. Poe said stay close to me and you could bet i stayed close to Ms. Poe, ‘cause I was too many states away to get lost.
GIM & RJ: [laughter]
GIM: and the only other people I knew of course would be Mrs. Luper and the other adults on the bus, but it was just a lot a lot a people but I just never realized that you know like I told the kids fifty years later that would be something so historical.
RJ: So that, that it wasn’t just the NAACP youth on the bus, it was adults
GIM & RI: Yes
RJ: from the community,
RI: correct, right right
GIM: Yes
RJ: church leaders,
GIM: Yes, uh huh, we had 2 bus loads,
RJ: Oh my gosh
GIM: Yep, anybody who could afford to pay their way because you had to pay for your of course the bus ride up there and then the hotel accommodations.
RJ: Did you get to go, Reggie?
RI: No, no I stood outside the, yeah I was too young, and I stood outside uh with my mother holding her hand
RJ: [laughter]
RI: and watching my sister leave, and yeah it was a tough time but like I said we knew what we had to do and so we just kept pushing forward.
GIM: Yeah
RI: And uh like i said even though my aunt didn’t get to go, uh, because of her principal, my sister went in her place, and so we kept it going
RJ: Yeah
RI: We kept it going
GIM: ‘cause that’s kind of what family did, you know, family did what we were told to do
RJ & RI: yeah
GIM: we didn’t have a lot of options back then you know,
RJ: Yes
GIM: if they said do it and I know like my brother tease me, said well I remember you were crying when you got that bus, and I you know I’d never been away from my parents before, at twelve you know
RI: I wasn’t going to mention that part
GIM: Well that’s ok
RJ: [laughter]
GIM: I was twelve, i’ll admit it. Yes, I did.
All: [unintelligible]
GIM: At twelve and you’ve never been away from your parents, not both of them at the same time, and especially for 5 days
RJ: Scary
GIM: Yeah it was
RJ: Big ol’ bus, going who knows where
GIM: Yeah it was, teenagers and adults, and no relatives whatsoever. I mean I knew all these people from the marches, but you know, but that’s not my mom, that’s not my daddy,
[laughter]
GIM: but i did it, ‘cause they told me to so i did it. And like I told my grandson, because every year when they have black history month at his school, you know, he raises his hand and says well my grandmother was at the march
RJ: That’s awesome. Do you remember his speech? Were you there?
GIM: I remember afterwards, but you know that day there were so many speeches you know
RJ: Ok, so you might not have been at that one
GIM: and then at that point it didn’t have the impact like it does now, you know,
RJ: Of course!
GIM: ‘cause like i said there were several speeches.
RJ: Yes
GIM: All day long we hear speeches, so, it was speech after speech after speech, so but of course the magnitude of what he said, you know, course, it’s part of history, but that day we heard a lot of speeches
RJ: Right, yes, you were like this is another one
GIM: [laughter] Didn’t understand the significance at that time. Now I truly appreciate it and I do have a couple of copies of it at home, but like it was that day was just a long day
RJ: Yes
GIM: and it was hot. I keep saying it was hot.
RJ: And so many people
GIM: Yes
RJ: That had to be powerful to see all those people
GIM: it was, and that was the really scary part, that’s why I really stayed close to my chaperone
RJ: Yes, didn’t want to get sucked in to the crowd
GIM: I did not, or lost
RJ: Yes
GIM: ‘cause i didn’t know anybody else in Washington DC
RJ: So what about back here at home, do you remember were there any of the protests or sit-ins, um, or marches that you remember here back home that were more memorable than others, like an incident that happened on one of them or during one of them that stands out in your mind?
GIM: Well, I, uh, not really, you know because I know there were occasions where they did call us names but we were always taught don’t respond to anything
RI: Right, right
GIM: So, like I said, there again, as kids we did as we were told, we stayed in tight formation, and like I said that’s why you see this picture of me holding my brother’s hand, and my mother made sure, she said now you watch out for your brother and your sister [laughter]
RJ: That’s amazing
GIM: Like I said, I was 10, so I had to protect them. I’m not sure what I would have done
if somebody would have done something to them. My mother just told me, “You keep ‘em close.”
RJ: Now did you, um, you were...what street were you on? Do you know here?
GIM: Well, I, and you know, that’s the hard part, ‘cause I really don't, the book doesn't...
it just says we were at a march
RI: In ‘61
GIM: In ‘61 it doesn’t really say where we were exactly
RJ: No, it says you were heading downtown.
GIM: Yeah. Like I said, this book by Mr. Bob Blackburn, he’s a, he works up there at the
historical society
RJ: History center. He’s a director, yeah.
GIM: Right, and Jim Argyle, these pictures were actually taken by his father, Jim’s dad. And
Jim found those when his father passed. I guess he said he found them in the garage, and so
he found these and so [Lex…] this whole book, and like I said, if you ever get a chance to get a
copy of this book because there were uh, I have it marked here at one point…let me see if I can
find the page.
RJ: There’s Mrs. Luper...look at your faces! Is this you over here?
GIM: No, no, no, Yes, no, we’re here
RJ: Okay
GIM: We’re here. That’s the same picture of us. I’m not sure who these kids are here, but
that’s what I’m saying, this book is really a nice testimony to images of Oklahoma history that Mr. Argyle was able to capture because of his father’s talents as a photographer.
RJ: Set it up for…
E: So all of that one this book is all from Oklahoma
RI: Yes
E: Oh wow, ok wow, this is amazing.
GIM: Several aspects of Oklahoma, the oil boom it’s really a nice book to have. I was teasing
one of my close friends who is in here. She was trying to convince her mom she wasn’t part of
the march when they left Douglas High School, and ‘course she’s caught on...there’s a picture of here right there leading the pack. Marching from Douglas downtown. And her mother sees it on TV, and she was trying to tell her mother, “No, I wasn’t there” but when Mr. Argyle was busy plastering taking pictures of everything and everybody. It was kind of hard to pretend like you were not there. I think this was in one of the classrooms, but, my girlfriend is in one of these pictures and she was leading the pack downtown, but she told her mother she was nowhere near it.
[laughter]
GIM: And that’s why I say it's no good to tell a tale, when unfortunately you may not be able to back it up. But this gives the inserts of what all was happening
RJ: Oh, the descriptions
GIM: Descriptions, yes that’s why I marked that page there. So, this is really a good book. It’s part of y’alls project to be able to have
RJ: Yes
GIM: that, to be able to have that, for that page it just says
RJ: Page 109, it says, “Racial demonstrators leave the church”, this place, right here [tapping sound] it must be that big one.
GIM: No, that’s this one here, 109, is that page 109 there? It says “center”? I think I highlighted it there. So that’s what we were doing.
RJ: Yes, center, that’s you yes, you are right. This is amazing. So...what was Mrs. Luper like?
RI: Well, she was very encouraging, and she knew what she wanted. And she was very direct, you know, she called it like it was, and you know, she was very organized. You know, I mean, she got her masters at OU, so she was very committed to this cause. And you could see it. You could just feel it and sense it that she was very serious about what she was doing the entire time. But, she made us feel like we were part of something big. Something that was gonna affect all of us and our children. You just had that sense that she was really sold on what she was saying and that it was [...] she was a very powerful strong woman. I think about the movement that you see now with the women. She was strong then. She could I guess, when I read about Sojourner Truth I can see that in her. She just had that leadership quality about her. And she made no excuses. She lead [...] whatever came out of her mouth she was very serious about it.
RJ: If it...I’m sorry
RI: She was just a very dedicated person. And like I said, she involved her children in this. You knew she was all in.
RJ: If a child was hurt or, you know, emotionally disturbed by something they experienced,
you know, if someone called you a name when you were a child, it hurt, you know. How would she handle that?
RI: Well we prepared for that in those meetings that we had on Mondays, we were taught, what to say, how to react if somebody hit you, or spit on you, or you know, said things about you. So we were kind of, we were taught how to react.
RJ: How did she suggest you react?
RI: Well, just nonviolence. Just, you know, just not get angry about it. You know, I mean [...], we met every Monday. So it was like, you know you were indoctrinated in terms of how to behave, how to conduct yourself, how to carry yourself, and just like my sister said, back then, we didn’t question like kids nowadays when older people try to make suggestions to ‘em. You know, we we did what our elders told us. You know, and so, we had no issues with what, what she was saying or any other ladies like Mrs. Davis was saying about, you know, how we should carry ourselves or conduct ourselves, don’t talk back, don’t do [...] we just kinda did what we were told. And, ‘cause we knew the consequences of what we were doing. [...] was, even though we were kids, you know, we still knew that we were doing something that would be a profound effect on those that would come after us. And so, we were committed to it. And, like I said, our
aunt was there, and we had other people we got to know, because we met so often together, and getting together for those marches, and we sung those songs, and it was very encouraging, very encouraging. So, I mean, I was thinking about this video
RJ: Oh yes
RI: I don’t know if you guys have seen this video or not
RJ: I have not
RI: I was at Full Circle Bookstore one day and happened to go by the counter, and they had several of these on the counter, but the video, this video, with [...] talking about the children of the civil rights movement, and Ms. Henderson - Joyce Henderson - speaks about it, and this same guys who took these pictures were talking about, you know, as they took the pictures they didn’t know how these children were able to stay strong in the midst of all these folks yelling at ‘em and things like that. They didn’t understand, you know, they said they thought they’d be afraid of anything, but, you know, like I said, we were just determined, and did what we had to do, but this is a good video.
RJ: I’ll have to look at it
RI: Yeah
E: I think they showed this one, oh sorry, um, I think it was a black festival I went to.
RI: Okay, yeah, I showed this in my class, I have a class, a music class I teach, but, I took a day out of February and talked about
RJ: Shoot yeah
RI: yeah, the uh, my participation in the civil rights movement, and I showed this video to my kids ‘cause they had never seen any of this and heard about it, and so
RJ: And that’s all in Oklahoma City
RI: Yeah, all in Oklahoma City, that’s correct. Yeah, yeah
RJ: That’s wonderful
RI: So some of those I think were still, that were in that Katz Drug Store sit-in, were speaking to that situation and all. So it's a good rate video, and I suggest that anyone who wants to know about the children and the involvement of children in that take a look at that video cause it is definitely worth it.
RJ: Now did you all do, did you sit at any counters, or [di] were you in marches?
GIM: Well we weren’t, like I said, we weren’t at the Katz Drugstore
RJ: But you sat at other counters
GIM: Yes we did, yes we did
RJ: Which ones did you sit at?
GIM: Well, like I said, there were cafeterias that wouldn’t allow, I think, was it [Maude], I want to say Maude cafeteria, it’s hard to remember the names of ‘em
RI: Anna Maude
GIM: Anna Maude, thank you, thank you. Anna Maude. That was one of the ones we were not allowed, so...
RJ: Anna Maude
GIM: Uh huh
RJ: Okay...John A. Brown? Wasn’t that…
RI: John A. Brown, right, right
GIM: John A. Brown’s was one, and I’m trying to think, there was a, oh, up there on Lincoln, but I can’t remember the name of it...it’s torn down, but it was a cafeteria, up there, if you could help me, I’m not sure, I can’t remember the names of ‘em, ‘cause we was just kids, so, you know, where my aunt put us in the car and drove us we went [laughter] and we did what they told us to do.
RI: And there were some cases where we would just kind of, kind of sit on the floor instead of at the counter
GIM: Right, because there were so many of us of course.
RI: Right, right, so…
RJ: And then you would just sit
RI: Right, yeah. Right, right, yeah, right right
RJ: And people would come by and say things to you.
GIM: Exactly, or at us, uh, yeah. There again, back in those days, kids did as they were told, we were seen and not heard.
RJ: Yeah
RI: Right, yeah
GIM: Yeah, so if we had an opinion we kept it to ourselves [...our mother and father]
RI: No such thing as talkin’ back
RJ: Yeah, it..a different time…well this picture right here really is troubling, the older white man coming in, looks like he’s touching one of these young boys
GIM: Yeah, like I...it was a
RJ: Did people get physically violent?
GIM: Not that I’m aware of, not to us
RJ: Okay
GIM: Not to us, like I said, and we, you know, just like he said, our aunt was always there with us, so if anything happened to..to the best of my recollection our side of the...maybe just verbal comments, nothing physical
RJ: The words can hurt
GIM: Yes, they can
RJ: Yeah
GIM: [Laughter]
RJ: So, how have you carried that experience forward into your lives?
GIM: Well, personally for me, especially, like I said, with that incident I had in the 10th grade with the teacher it made me more determined, and I guess, that was the thing, I guess I lucked out, because I was.. I felt I was somewhat of a shy individual, I guess both our parents, you know, made us realize the importance of education, so I was still determined. I made the Honor Society. I made the Honor Roll and so forth
RJ: Good for you
GIM: And I tried to...and then there again, even when it was time to go to college, I guess ‘cause of what I did face with my father had enrolled me to go to Pepperdine University because we were members of the Church of Christ, and he wanted me to have a Christian education. And at that time, and we just went through this last week, uh, my mom’s baby sister had tried to get into Oklahoma Christian...University back in 1959, and they wouldn’t let her in.
RJ: Right
GIM: So even though this was ‘69 my father didn’t want to take a chance. He was sendin’ me to Pepperdine. But then he made the statement, “Well, I can’t afford to bring you home every too often…”
RJ: Yeah, that’s a…
GIM: Not every two or three months
RJ: Indiana?
GIM: Pepperdine is in Malibu, California
RJ: California! What am I thinking! I’m thinking Purdue...Pepperdine
GIM: [...] a Christian university...and so, I said, ok, let me rethink this, I said, you know, if Langston was good enough for you and your siblings, let me try and go there. At least I know 45 miles from home...I can come home a little more often. So two months before school was out I applied and I got in so, that’s how I wound up at Lanston. You know, ‘cause he was really wanting to make sure that I got into somebody’s college, so I was accepted to Pepperdine, but they called me about you want to stay out there...Nope! Not happening! That’s too far from home! Once again, I was a homebody….so it was truly a blessing to me. I have built lifelong friends, that, uh, ‘cause one of my friends it the reason I’m here today her name is Cheryl Dobbs Pennington, and she works with the...your program here and she’s the one pushing me, she said, “Gwin, you know,
RJ: I’m so glad your here
GIM: … she said, “you’re always talking about your experiences”, so she just encouraged me to try to get with Gina and then try to get into to this. That was my determination, and so, I loved going to Langston. There again, [unfortunately] being in a black environment, it really helped me build self-confidence, cause you know, I guess that I guess at that point, as far as I was concerned, there wasn’t anything I couldn’t do if I wanted to.
RJ: Right.
GIM: So you know, and I stayed busy. We were talking about our band director, Mr. Francisco. He was another one. Because Mr. Ansio Francisco was our band director when I was a Moon Junior High, then I got up to Langston and I saw him on campus. And he knew he had taught me how to play the flute, and so he said, “Why aren’t you in the band?” and I made the statement, “Because I’m grown and I’m not a band major”.
Int, GIM, RI: [Laughter]
GIM: But because of the relationship he had with my parents, he went by my parent’s house and got my flute and brought it back on campus and said, had me summoned back to the band room, and said, “Okay, here’s your horn…”
RJ: Right
GIM: “You gonna be in the band.” And so I [wan] to be in the band, that was the best experience in my life, too, even though I wasn’t a music major, I was history major, but, you know, there again, I felt that closeness he knew me from junior high. He met me back in college, and he knew my parents, and so he just went by the house
RJ: Just like family
GIM: Family
RJ: Yeah
GIM: You know, so I guess that helped my confidence to know, that okay, I could do anything I wanna do if I put my mind to it
RJ: Right
GIM: I been blessed to pledge a couple of sororities, and the rest is history, ‘cause, you know, I got out of school, and uh, married, and I’ve been blessed, knock on wood, I have two sons, and I pushed education on them, so they know, and in fact, they also matriculated at Langston. So, in our family, we’ve had 13 graduates.
RJ: Wow!
GIM: From Langston
E: Awesome
GIM: Because my father and his siblings graduated, my brother and one sister and I graduated from Langston University, and then both my sons and a niece have graduated from Langston University.
RJ: You made quite a legacy, the Langston University legacy
GIM: Right, there again, that goes back, like I said, to my grandfather and grandmother, that lived in Langston, had a boarding house in the town, so when Langston was in its early stages, they actually boarded students because they didn’t have dormitories at that time. So students actually stayed in a house they had there in town, cause they had a house in the country where the land was, and they had a house there in the town
RJ: Yes
GIM: So, that was income, and that was how they managed to put their kids through college, is with the boarding house
RJ: That’s amazing...
GIM: So, you know, so, there’s a [los…] so I just felt like, you know, that a, going through the struggle and seein’ what they had to go through made me more determined, and I tried to pass that onto my sons, that you know, you can do anything if you put your mind to it.
RJ: Yeah
RI: Yeah
RJ: And what about you, Reginald, how have you carried those experiences forward?
RI: Well, I try to help as a schoolteacher, I taught at Spencer, I taught there for 16 years, and I always try to encourage kids to always do their best, and to always put forth their best effort and to stay strong. And it’s really...again, its really…’cause I’ve been teaching 42 years now
RJ: Oh, wow
RI: Yeah, I’ve enjoyed it, you know, I love teaching, and it’s just been a blessing to me, and uh, one of these days I guess I’ll have to decide to do something else or say, I’m done teaching, but, I still try to impact the kids that I meet in a positive way, and encourage them to always do their best no matter what. ‘Cause nowadays, it’s a little different now teaching, than it used to be, um, like we were saying, kids you know, do as you say now, you kinda hafta be a little more firm I guess than with some, and then some will choose not to listen. But you hope that whatever you say, you know, they will take and keep it and use it, and maybe it might be an encouragement to them down the road.
RJ: Yes
RI: But, uh, like I said, I love teaching, and, uh, just uh, anytime I see something positive about black people, I tend to certainly keep it. Just like, I’ve... I’ve kept, I have so many papers like this one that I’ve kept for years
RJ: Oh my...look at that! That is an old paper!
GIM: [laughter]
RI: I keep a lot of things like this...I have a whole...my wife says “get rid of some things”, but you know, so much of our history, they startin’ to kind of come out now.
RJ: Yes, finally
RI: Yeah, yeah, and so I try to share as much as I can, with especially our black children to encourage them to hang in there, that we have made a big impact whether it’s in print or not, you know, I mean, when I saw the movie Hidden Figures I didn’t know anything like that was out there, and that movie just kinda, things like that, encourage you, that you can do anything you set your mind to. And so, any child I meet, especially black child, I always try to encourage them as much as I can to get that education, because there was a time when we couldn’t get an education. It was taboo for us to read a book or anything like that. So, my grandchildren, I try to encourage them to [rustling] sorry, I try to encourage them to read as much as...and I read to them and my wife reads to them and so we knew what others weren’t allowed to do, and so we try to encourage ours to keep moving forward to try and make a positive contribution
RJ: Yes
RI: to this world in some way or form or fashion and
RJ: So this is the Black Chronicle, published here on the East side
RI: Yeah, I’ve got so many papers like this that I’ve kept over the years
RJ: Well I’m glad you have
RI: Like the ashtray
RJ: Yes
RI: I probably could have found some more things
RJ: It’s going to be the Reginald Irons Collection at the Oklahoma History Center someday!
[laughter]
RI: Yeah, I just collected, I mean I told my sister that I forgot this letter that I had, that uh, Mrs. Luper. She had this Freedom Fiesta that would occur every year. And she would have a day for different people who impacted Oklahoma in terms of the civil rights movement. My aunt, Lillian Oliver, with Nancy Davis and LadyRue Hunter had their day, along with Doc Wheels, but it was called Freedom Fiesta. It was just a whole week of celebration of those who had a big 45:00 impact on the civil rights movement in Oklahoma City, and so, that, it doesn’t happen anymore, but I hate that I left that letter home. It was a part of what Mrs. Luper decided to do, in order to try and keep us moving forward as opposed to resting on our laurels [laughter] and sayin’, “we made it”. But, she kept coming up with things as long as she could
RJ: Wow
RI: That would help to keep…
GIM: Yep
RJ: Momentum
RI: Yeah, to keep that momentum going, because we just weren’t there yet
GIM: Yes
RJ: Do you think we are now?
RI: No. [laughter] We’ve kind of taken 2 to 3 steps backwards. We’ve definitely [laughter]
RJ: I know it
RI: Yeah, we’ve taken about I’d say, two, three steps, we’ve probably taken a mile backwards. You know when…
RJ: Did you ever expect that?
RI: No, I didn’t
RJ: I didn’t either
RI: I didn’t, but just like President Obama said, its you know it’s the hatred that some people felt for him has created this situation, and you just, um, you know, if you are religious at all, we say Jesus is love, and it just seems like its just turned totally around, and hate seems to be the guiding principle for some people, and not love. And that’s what is so discouraging coming up from the church hearing about love and expressing love and doing good for all mankind, it just seems like we’ve taken, we’ve gone back a mile I guess
RJ: I know it
RI: ...the other direction. It’s just discouraging. It can be discouraging, I’ll put it that way. But again, I keep moving forward for my children and my family, and try to encourage them on just as we all try to do. We all try to do the best for our children and we still want them to live in a world that uh…a world where they can succeed, and not be criticized, and not be, oh, uh, held behind or moved to the side because of their color.
RJ: I know it
RI: Uh, but they should be given the same opportunities as anybody else, as long as they can do the work or you know, so, you know, the fight continues. It really does continue, and especially now, seeing how things are now really tells us that our work here is not done. We’ve just gotta hang in there and keep going so young people like yourself will hopefully keep hope alive and just keep, you know, telling our story. You know, telling our story and letting people know this is a good story. This is a good story and we need to keep sharing it and developing it and finding out new things that people have done because we lose our history. If we lose our history we are totally lost. We’ve got to keep our history going and keep telling our story and hopefully good will continue to prosper instead of evil. But, I don’t know, it is tough at times.
RJ: It is tough, but, I mean...I don’t know. I feel like we are in it together.
[laughter]
GIM: It is. It’s a universal.
RJ: It is
GIM:... universal
RI: It seems to be spreading. You know, I mean, just New Zealand, you see, when I first heard that, I was like, what in the world
RJ: I know
RI: I mean, in a country like that, you just don’t expect.
RJ: Are you talking about white supremacy over there?
RI, GIM: Yes!
RI: Yeah, I mean
GIM: Unbelievable
RI: To shoot to kill 49 people
RJ: Unbelievable
RI: It’s just uh, how much hatred does one have, I mean, so I don’t know, like I said, I would like to see more love come about. We, we, we Selfishness. It seems like people are more selfish now.
RJ: I know
RI: So, I don’t know
RJ: So let me ask you some of these questions.
RI: Okay
RJ: The most memorable place on the Northeast side for you. We mentioned the Freedom Center, but
RI: Yeah, I mean, I’d probably, I mean, course, you know there, growing up on the East side, you know, so many places that we went that we went that we enjoyed going to like, OTASCO
RJ: Wooh! [laughter]
RI: that’s no longer there and TG&Y, I know I’m dating myself [laughter]
RJ: [laughter] I remember those, Ebony doesn’t, but I do.
RI: but places, I mean, you know, TG&Y was kind of a five and dime store, that you could go in, ‘cause that was about all we had in our pockets anyway.
RJ: Where was it?
RI: So, it was on 23rd.
GIM: Uh huh
RI: There was one on 23rd right…
GIM: Yeah, I’m trying to think, TG&Y was...let’s see, Rexall Drugstore was further up…
RI: [laughter]
GIM: The Rexall Drugstore was right up there next to where is the auto body shop now it’s up there near CVS. But TG&Y was I’m trying to think, I’m wanting to say it was up there on 36th, wasn’t it? ‘Cause I worked at the one that was out there at Shepherd Mall
RI: Yeah...was it 36th?
GIM: I think it was
RI: But anyway, places like that, that I remember going to and enjoy going to, because like I said, we were able to have a nickel in our pocket and we could buy some candy
GIM: mmmhmmm
RI: you know, for penny candy, so you had 5 pieces of candy, so, I mean, there were so many places that were memorable, but again, in regards to the civil rights movement, the Freedom Center, we spent a lot of time there…
GIM: There and church
RJ: Which church did y’all go to?
GIM: It was on 7th Street, East 7th Street Church of Christ. It was right off of, I’m trying to think...Lottie...so you would come down Lottie, going back east here,
RI: Yeah
GIM: Its right there where those houses were, cause it was on 7th Street, in fact, it was across the street from Dunbar [High] Dunbar Elementary School they would cross there. Actually we were privileged to be able to...in 1965…’cause we were there, yeah, we were there in 1965, the brethren that had that congregation the white brethren, built an edifice on Wilshire Blvd. and they wanted to keep that facility, where I still go to church, on NE 36th and Prospect, they wanted to keep it Church of Christ. So they actually sold us that property so they could keep it Church of Christ. So between the Freedom Center and Church, that was it. [laughter] Cause our parents didn’t let us do too...outside of school, Freedom Center, and church, that was our life.
RJ: It was a little triangle
GIM: Yeah, that was it, it was a little triangle for you
RI: That was pretty much it, yeah
GIM: Like I said, I turned 16 and I went to work part time at TG&Y. Like I said, there was a family center in Shepherd Mall, which, is no longer there now
RJ: Wow
GIM: And it’s so funny, ‘cause, you know, there again, it was a member, it was a white brother at Mayford Church of Christ who was a manager there. So he actually came over to our church and told them they were looking for young people to work at TG&Y. So, it was of course about 5 of my friends from church, and he hired all of us to work there at TG&Y. And this was back in the mid-sixties. I think it was about ‘66, [...] because I guess I got my driver’s license, and my mother let me borrow the car to get to work, borrow the family car to get to work.That was a nice experience. That was my life, just church, school and work, ‘til I went off to college. I felt so proud, when I got to college, I had all my own stuff for my dormitory room. I didn’t have to ask my parents for money ‘cause I had saved up my money for two years, and, I had an electric typewriter, which was a big thing back then…
RJ: That is...
GIM: I know you don’t know what that is, but I had a Royal Electric Typewriter [laughter] and I was so proud.
RJ: You were ready to go
GIM: And everybody kept coming to my dorm room, “Can I borrow your typewriter?” No, you have to use it in my room, my typewriter is not [....] going anywhere!”
E: You won’t see it again [laughter]
GIM: And I still have it
E: Wow…
GIM: I still have it sittin’ in a corner in my bedroom. I thought: you, know I spent a lot of money. I was surprised that little electric typewriter, ‘cause that got me through a whole lot of term papers
RJ: I love that you still have it, I love that.
GIM: My daughter-in-law calls my house the museum, ‘cause she says you can go in there and find anything from the last 60 years - it’s still there [laughter]
RJ: Oh shoot, okay, well....what has changed the most on this side of town? And that could be changed for the good, changed for the bad…
GIM: Downtown...downtown, has changed the most
RJ: What is downtown.
GIM: Nothing. That’s what I’m sayin’. Back then you had places like Rothschild’s, you had John A. Brown’s, you had, oh, Woolworths
RJ: You mean downtown Oklahoma City?
GIM: Yes.
RJ: Okay
GIM: That was all you had. You know, now you got all these big buildings it has definitely evolved. It went kind of stagnant for a while, but over the last 30 years you had this evolution, so I don’t even recognize downtown anymore, you know. So, that to me is the biggest [ch] it’s positive, but, you know, we didn’t have that canal or so forth down there, we didn’t have any of that stuff down there. So, that’s probably about [th…]
RJ: That big ‘ol Devon Tower
GIM: Right, right, we didn’t have any of that stuff down there, it was just, I mean, you know, you could actually catch the bus and go downtown and you knew where you were going. Now I wouldn’t even try that. And I think I did that a couple of times, with a girlfriend when we were young, like 14 or 15, we did that, but now there’s no way I’d try going downtown,
RJ: Right, right
GIM: it’s just way too much. That was the simple thing, the library and so forth that was down there, but all that is...it’s for the best, but that too me has been the biggest evolution ‘cause if you even look at some of the pictures in this book here
RJ: Katz isn’t even in there
GIM: No, no, none of that stuff - John A. Brown’s… I mean, that was just a household name for everybody, I mean, you know everybody was so proud to have that metal, that metal charge card. It was metal. My mother, we lost her 5 years ago yesterday, and when we were going through, cleaning out stuff, and we found, she kept, that metal charge card!
RJ: Isn’t that something
RI: [laughter]
GIM: She was so proud to be able to have that metal charge card from Johnny Browns.
RJ: Yes…okay, and what about for you, Reginald, what’s changed the most?
RI: Well, I mean, a lot of the buildings that used to be there are gone, and they haven’t been replaced by anything. I was telling my sister, you know, I drive by down Martin Luther King, and a lot of the buildings that used to be there are torn down, but then they don’t replace them with anything, so, there’s not much there. And because that’s where we did all of our shopping, and grocery shopping
GIM: mmmhmmm
RI: and stores, and
GIM: Safeway
RI: I went to this store OTASCO, it was a store that, you know, I got one of my favorite toys….uh my mother bought it from there, and it was called a Big Bruiser
GIM: Yep, yep
RJ: What the heck is that?
RI: It was a truck, it was actually a wrecker truck that you put batteries in and it had a winch that would move, and I kept that thing...I don’t know it may be still at the house there [laughter]. That was my favorite toy as a child, that I can remember. And I kept that toy for a long time. It came from that store.
RJ: OTASCO
GIM: Oklahoma Tower and Supply, that’s what it stands for, Oklahoma Tower and Supply
RI: There were no...yeah, there were no...just so many stores have been taken out but haven’t been replaced by anything like you used to see back in the day, ‘cause like I say, that’s where we did all our shopping, was on the East side of town but if you look at it now, you can’t tell. There’s just not much there anymore.
RJ: Just empty buildings
RI: Yeah, yeah, and then like I said, the Freedom Center, I think I read an article online that Willard Johnson, I think, has decided to take on restoration of the Freedom Center...I think that’s what I read. But, yeah, I mean, I would definitely make a contribution to restoring that
E: So would I
RI: that building but I don’t know who owns it
RJ: What would you like to see happen to it?
RI: Just restored
RJ: In your dream?
RI: I would love to see it restored, ‘cause, like I said, I remember Mrs. Luper working so hard, pushing us to get out and sell
GIM: Sell memberships
RI: Yeah, NAACP memberships in order to build that building...before it was built
GIM: and to keep it funded, ‘cause you know, everything was on donations, you know, churches helped out, but you know, but everything was whatever you could scrape up, you know, ‘cause, people raising kids like I said, there was 5 of us in our family, and my father worked at Tinker Field, my mother was a stay-at-home mother...my younger sister went to school, so we’re talking about my dad hustlin’ cutting yards on the weekend besides working full time at
Tinker. Money was not plentiful, but he survived. We were blessed that he and my mother were able to put 5 kids through college, and not on loans or scholarships. They paid our way.
RJ: Yes, that’s hard work
RI: We met in churches, we met in church before she was able to get that building established. Like I said, to me, that’s a part of our history and it needs to be maintained. I would love to see that building restored. And like I said, I would be willing to contribute, and I’m sure a lot of other people would do the same.
GIM: Oh yeah
RJ: Who owns it right now?
RI: That I don’t know. But, like I said, there’s an article online that if I read it correctly, it seems like Willard Johnson, who is in the process of doing what he could to get it restored, I believe I read it that way, but I’m not sure. But that does need to be restored, ‘cause again, if we are going to honor this lady, Mrs. Luper we need to really get that building restored. And maybe put things like this in there, and her book, and this. And people can come by and see what.. the remnants of what we did back then to try and get us where we are today.
RJ: It should be, I mean, do you see it as not just a community center, but also kind of a museum space?
GIM: Yes.
RI: Yes, yes. And it could be a teaching situation. I mean, when I go to some of these
RJ: Classrooms
RI: Yeah, yeah, classrooms. They could have classrooms where kids from the area could come and learn more about our history. Because, again, it’s not being done in public school. It’s not being done.
GIM: No, no it’s not.
RJ: And also learn how to continue the work
RI: Yeah, yeah that’s true.
RJ: Organize for different things that still need to be happening.
RI: That’s correct, yes. Exactly.
RJ: I think that would be wonderful
RI: It would be. Yeah, I would love to see that
RJ: Me too
RI: For when I’m no longer here. That would be something that young people like yourself could really take over and push through, you know. I know this lady would appreciate that. She would appreciate that. She worked so hard, and like I said, I was right there with her.
E: We owe it to her
RI: She worked so hard, and it would be a great addition to her legacy
RJ: It would. So before we end the interview, do you guys know anyone else we should talk to? Anybody you can think of who might be able to add to the story?
GIM: Well, I have a friend, and like I say, she’s in the book, but I couldn’t find her picture, but her mother was the first African American Regent for OU.
RJ: Oh wow
She is actually a good friend of Cheryl Pennington’s also. Her name was Sanestelle Lewis. Her mother was Sylvia Lewis.
RJ: Okay
GIM: Mrs. Lewis was very instrumental here in Oklahoma City, and she even ran an OIC in Lagos, Nigeria back in the early seventies. She was another dedicated and outgoing lady. She reminded me a lot...she didn’t quite have what Mrs. Luper had, but she did a lot of different things. And like I said, I’m trying to think, was it [government bailmen?] I want to say ‘80-’81, but her name was Syvia A. Lewis, and her daughter, Sanestelle Lewis is a good friend of mine. So if you could get a hold of her. Cheryl Pennington though could put you in contact with her to. She could probably convince her better than you could.
Int. Yes, we have discovered that.
GIM: She convinced me, so put Cheryl on, I think she’ll be back in town from her United Nations trip, I think she’s supposed to have been back today, ‘cause, she got to go to the United Nations last week.
RJ: Wow
GIM: She got to spend the week up there representing the state of Oklahoma - she was a delegate for a I guess a church league, the church is Trinity Presbyterian up on 23rd - and so she spent the last 8 days up there at the United Nations
RJ: That’s fabulous...and this is the regent? The first regent?
GIM: Her mother is, yes, Sylvia A. Lewis was the first African American Regent [who nominated her...David Boer?]
RI: I don’t remember
GIM: I think it was David Boer
RI: That was an actual Facebook article that came out about her recently
GIM: Yeah, Sylvia A. Lewis, and her daughter, Sanestelle Lewis, is a good friend of mine, and she lives, just a few blocks…
RJ: And what’s her name
GIM: Sanestelle: S A N E S T E L L E Her name was a combination of two aunts’ names: Her Aunt Sandra and her Aunt Estelle. So her mother wanted to name her Sanestelle. Sanestelle Lewis. L E W I S But her mother, you could probably Google her, as far as Oklahoma history.
RI: Another person, I don’t know if you guys have talked to Nancy Lynn Davis
RJ: No
RI: Boy, she’s got the same name as her mother. I think she just retired from Northeast, teaching at Northeast High School. She was right there with us
GIM: Yeah, Nancy Lynn
RI: Working there the whole time, her and her brother Kevin, at the Freedom Center, because her mother was involved like our mother.
GIM: Her mother was actually the first black enrolled at OSU. There is a building named after her - the Nancy Randolph
RI: Yeah, they just put up a statue…
GIM: the Nancy Randolph Davis
RJ: She was the first black student at OSU?
GIM: Uh huh, ‘cause she had to sit, she had to sit outside the classroom to take her classes ‘cause they wouldn’t let her sit inside the classroom she had to sit by the door outside
RJ: You here these stories about OU, but not OSU, I don’t know the history of integration at OSU
GIM: to get her masters
She and our aunt all were about the same age. Our Aunt Lillian had to go to the University of Illinois because they weren’t allowing them at OSU. So she and another friend of theirs from Langston, they just both went to the University of Illinois and got their masters degrees. So they wouldn’t let them get ‘em in Oklahoma.
RJ: Oh my gosh
RI: So Nancy would be a really good person.
RJ: Nancy Lynn Davis. She is the daughter of this Nancy Randolph Davis
GIM: And actually the cousin to Sanestelle Lewis [laughter], they’re cousins, they’re cousins
RJ: Dang, it’s a small world.
E: They kept it in the family.
GIM: So, if you get ahold of Sanestelle you got Nancy Lynn too, yeah ‘cause they’re cousins
RJ: That’s excellent
E: And they both were history makers.
GIM: Yep, like I said, back then, we were just born out of families that just wanted to do something to try to make things better.
RJ: And you have
GIM: We didn’t know the meaning of can’t or no. Your parents say “do it” you say “okay”. There was no “I don’t want to , I don’t feel like it”, there was no such thing as that back then.