Description:
Eloise Carbajal talks about life in Northeast Oklahoma City.
Transcript:
Interviewer: Today I have the pleasure of talking with a lady who in my mind and my opinion is kind of an icon on the east side because, I know that you’re involved in a lot of different social and civic activities and you have been for a number of years, and so if you’ll tell me what your name is so we can share it with the rest of the world.
Eloise Carbajal: I am Eloise Carbajal and I was born here in Oklahoma City on the corner of Seventh and Rhode Island.
I: Northeast seventh, northeast seventh.
EC: Northeast seventh and Rhode Island, uh huh.
Int: Okay.
EC: At that time, they call it the fairgrounds so I think we, the fairground, I do want to talk about it because that is my beginning, my roots, and it’s where I came from.
Int: Yes, yes. Well, that’s excellent. That’s really one of the purposes for my doing the interviews and one day moving to the point of publishing a book so people will know that we were here, and we were here in the old fair grounds. Well it was called “The Fairgrounds” then because, why?
EC: It was the state fair where Douglas High School is located now on eighth and Martin Luther King. I almost said Eastern.
Int: Eastern
EC: Because I was born and it was named Eastern but I am one who can adapt on Martin Luther King and that was the fair. And on the tracks there, off of seventh all the way on down coming to the fairground there were tracks. The children would come out and watch the animals and those who were involved participating in acts within the fairground. We enjoyed watching that train come in and unloading, so I think that’s why that area was called fairground, because of the state fair.
Int: That’s right. That’s right. And do you remember your address or northeast seventh street?
EC: I certainly do.
Int: What was it?
EC: It was 722 N Rhode Island.
Int: 722
EC: And it was the corner of seventh and Rhode Island, now presently where Fairview Baptist Church is. I joined Fairview Baptist Church at seven years old.
Int: Oh!
EC: And I am still a member of Fairview.
Int: And you are how old?
EC: I am seventy-two. This is 07, so I will be seventy-three this month. No I won’t, October. November the 26th.
Int: November the 26th.
EC: November the 26th.
Int: You’ll be 73?
EC: I will be 73.
Int: What a wonderful blessing, isn’t that?
EC: Yes it is.
Int: That’s just a mighty blessing.
EC: Yes it is, and I’m grateful.
Int: So you’re among the founders of Fairview Baptist Church, I mean, you and your family have been involved in Fairview.
EC: Yes, yes, yes.
Int: Just forever
EC: Yes, all my life
Int: Isn’t that awesome?
EC: And where the church is located is the house I was born in and the house my mother died in where it’s located now.
Int: Where the church is now? The church sanctuary?
EC: Yes. The church sanctuary.
Int: And right across from it, that sanctuary is where
EC: Is Don Burns fellowship hall. We’re actually cousins but we were raised as sisters and brothers so he is and he was my brother. And it was approved to have the fellowship hall. That’s what they called it the fellowship hall. On that Monday. And the incident with the Murrah bombing happened that Wednesday. So they named the fellowship hall Don Burns.
Int: And Mr. Burns was one of the victims.
EC: In the Murrah Bombing
Int: In the Murrah Bombing. Yes. And Before he was working for the federal government though he was…
EC: He taught at Douglas. He was football coach.
Int: He taught at Douglas. He was the high school, the freshman football coach.
EC: And when the incident happened, he was working for HUD.
Int: Uh huh. So he had changed occupations.
EC: Yes, yes.
Int: I remember Mr. Burns. He was a quiet, very proud man, very strong role model figure for the young men.
EC: Yes. And he attended Maryland State where a lot of the others…
Int: Oh did he? He went to Maryland State.
EC: Yeah.
Int: That’s where Rosie Turner
EC: Rosie Turner, Albert Mooton, (unintelligible)
Int: Yes, Yes, that’s why they were such tight buddies.
EC: Yes, Yes.
Int: Yes, I remember all of them having been around about that time.
EC: Yes, that’s right, you right.
Int: How wonderful. I never knew that. That’s very important.
EC: So, he was born and raised in the fairground also and I have another brother, Benjamin Provo. He was raised in the fairground.
Int: And is Benjamin Provo related to the preaching Provos and Marvin and them.
EC: Yes. Marvin is his brother on his father’s side.
Int: Oh
EC: I’m his sister on his sister’s side. Ben. Benjamin.
Int: Oohh.
EC: Ben Earl
Int: Okay.
EC: Yes. We have the same mother, the Provos, the Munsens, and all of the others with their married names. Those are his sisters and his brother.
Int: I didn’t know that. I knew that there was some relationship.
EC: That’s it.
Int: But I didn’t know that it was on both sides.
EC: That’s our brother.
Int: How wonderful.
EC: Yes.
Int: Boy, that was a big family too, you know.
EC: Yes
Int: Speaking of some of the families, what were, who were some of the families that lived around the area.
EC: Oh there were the Reeses, and the Reeses, their father had the repair shoe shop, but the Jordans had a shoe shop on the corner of fourth and Rhode Island was the Jordans’ shoe store and there was the Gadeces, and the Reeces and who else? Oh, the Browns. Leeman Brown and his kids. That’s Bueller and Margie Brown and all of that. The Royges, then the Burns and the Pattons who stayed on Wisconsin,
Int: Oh the Pattons
EC: Yes. Across the street from the Brown bummer, which a lot of stores and businesses were entrepreneurs doing that, Black-run, Black manager and ran it.
Int: That’s right. That’s right. So it was the Brown Bummer. It was a…
EC: Green door, green onion, the skyline on the corner of fourth and then they come on up sixth street and there was a hot ziggety. They call is the sixth street corner and within there, on the corner on the northside was Sun’s Grocery and on the other side there was a little joint and there was Price’s cleaners and then it was Hot Ziggety there on the corner and Kellum was Allen’s Grocery store. And on Wisconsin, it was Honest John and down on seventh was Sonny Norwood. He was White, but he hired Blacks because he was in a Black neighborhood.
Int: So he didn’t flee when the Whites who lived in the area previously migrated out.
EC: Right, right.
Int: So, when you were born, were you all living in the fairgrounds?
EC: I was, I’m going to back up and tell you again. I was born in the house.
Int: In the house
EC: It wasn’t a hospital. Maybe they did. But I know, so they tell me as that song says, I was born in the house at 722 North Rhode Island. I was born at a house at home and not a hospital.
Int: So that’s 722 N Rhode Island’s really a homestead.
EC: Oh that is my stomping ground.
Int: Truly a homestead. I’m just amazed. When was it that you moved from that house? Do you remember?
EC: Um…I finished school in ’53 so it had to be in the late ‘60s or ‘70s.
Int: So you were there for some thirty-odd years.
EC: Forever. I stayed there and then I moved on Eubanks and then we moved to Terry.
Int: Okay, okay.
EC: Yes and then um, because we had a cleaners, Sill Deluxe Cleaners in the northeast shopping center and that was closer to our business up on Eubanks at 805
Int: And when you say our business, who is our business?
EC: I’m speaking of my husband of 46 years so Mr. Carbajal Sr. My 46 years. And we had in the northeast shopping center, we had the Sill Deluxe Cleaners, we had after the economy and business began slow, we combined that and we Eloise’s bridal shop, most pleasant professional anyone could get in because everybody’s just happy and it’s just a nice…
Int: And that was in the northeast shopping center
EC: Right in the same location with the cleaners And then there was a vacant spot later. We open up, and I mean we, George Singer Sylvester and I, we open up the bingo hall.
Int: Still in that strip
EC: There was a wig shop and next door was the bingo hall. And next to the bingo hall we had Eloise Corner which is about out of existence now. It was a dry cleaning unit and they were machines like you wash. But there was fluid in it to clean your clothes and that was Eloise corner.
Int: Well you were, you and Mr. Carbajal were quite the entrepreneurs even as a couple. What inspired you to…
EC: Well, his family, that was their family trade, dry cleaning.
Int: Dry cleaning was the family trade.
EC: And his relatives were the Price’s cleaners. They’re off sixth between Kellum and Rhode Island on the south side of the street, there was Price’s cleaners. So he would have to go their after school. He had to go to the cleaners and work which he dreaded but we never know how the lord is preparing us for later and that’s where he acquired his knowledge and his skill.
Int: His knowledge and his skills and his wealth as a businessman from doing something that he hated as a kid.
EC: Yes. So that’s how the cleaners came about.
Int; isn’t that something.
EC: it’s a family trade
Int: So that part was his family trade so how did the other business evolve. You just sat down one day and just decided?
EC: Yes because…I’m trying to remember the name of the bank there on Lottie right off 13th, and they have offered and it came to us about they had a lot of wedding wear and asked me was I interested. What was the name of that bank?
Int: I can’t remember the name of that bank but it was a minority owned and operated bank. When it was established at northeast 13th and Lottie. I remember that.
EC: Yes it was. Yes.
Int: And so, one of their purposes was to help Black business get started. That was one of their main goals and I believe back then, I know one of their presidents was Eddie Jackson. Remember tall Eddie?
EC: Yes, and then he moved up on Lincoln with that bank. Yes I certainly do.
Int: Well that’s just remarkable. And you all took advantage of some of the economic opportunities.
EC: Yes after they came and offered and let us know what was in involved. So that’s how Eloise bridal shop came about because of the bank.
Int: Okay and so you’re saying though that your inventory was financed through the bank?
EC: Through the bank. Because as you just stated, that was their purpose to be in the neighborhood is to have business. And they had that inventory, and they ask me would I be interested.
Int: Oh well that was wonderful for you wasn’t it. That was right up your alley because I know that you do you love to, I call it, set designing because you can just design things, and I’ve seen you do, I’ve been to weddings that you’ve done that you have set up and it’s just beautiful. What are you doing today? Are you still involved in any of that?
EC: No not, really. I am not.
Int: Oh no more, well, did any of your children follow?
EC: Nobody else followed.
Int: Is that right?
EC: That is something.
Int: How many children did you and Mr. Carbajal have?
EC: Mr. Carbajal had five, I had three, and we had two. A total of ten.
Int: Oh my goodness, ten children? That’s too exciting!
EC: Uh huh, yes. Yes it is.
Int: Goodness! Okay!
EC: Yes.
Int: Well I never knew that the family was that large I really mainly knew you as business people and also through the urban league because y’all donated and you all would give a monthly contribution from the proceeds from the proceeds from the bingo games. The Urban league was one of your non-profit organizations that you gave donations to every month.
EC: That’s correct. We got from the community and that was (unintelligible) give back into the community.
Int: Mhhm, give back to the community.
EC: So there were several organizations that benefited from the proceeds of the bingo hall.
Int: Oh that’s excellent. That’s just wonderful. So you graduated from Douglass High School?
EC: Graduated from Douglass High School in 1953 when it was still up on High.
Int: On northeast six and High.
EC: Yes and all of us, we had our reunion, our class reunion
Int: What year reunion was that for you? The forty…?
EC: The fifty…
Int: Was it fifty-three? It was fifty something…Maybe fifty-four
EC: Fifty-three…come at ‘07
Int: So fifty-fourth?
EC: Mhhm Fifty-fourth
Int: Wow
EC: We had it. We were here
Int: Did you ever think?
EC: No, Nooooo way, and after I finished Douglass, I had a scholarship and I attended Langston University
Int: Oh you went to Langston! Do you remember any of your instructors or anything from Langston?
EC: Mr. Sims, I can remember him because he was the band director and that’s how I got my scholarship
Int: Oh you were in the band?
EC: I was a drum major at Douglass High School and I got a scholarship to be drum major at Langston.
Int: Well I know you must have a picture of you as drum majorette.
EC: I have no pictures. Even in high school I had some and I don’t know what happened.
Int: What! You don’t know where your pictures are? Oh my goodness, I thought, now surely Eloise would have some pictures for me.
EC: I did, I did.
Int: Because I would just love that, that would be excellent.
EC: Oh yes.
Int: So, but one of the things I will ask you to look at in your, if you have picture albums left, any pictures left, I would like to have pictures of, a picture of you and Mr. Carbajal as owners of your businesses, because of course that is going to be one of the focus points, the businesses that you owned, even though the businesses were not located in the fairgrounds, but you all were raised and grew up in the fairgrounds.
EC: Now he was raised in Luther
Int: Oh he was from Luther.
EC: Right, but his business was. That was before Lottie, that was what, what is oh, 36, that’s too far off
Int: Uh huh, but the Price’s cleaner was.
EC: His beginning was at Price’s cleaners
Int: In the fairgrounds
EC: In the fairgrounds.
Int: Okay so, you raised your five children in that house at that location
EC: Yes, I raised my five kids at that location.
Int: Okay, so you had the occasion then to take them to the fair?
EC: Oh yes, I sure did.
Int: You remember anything special about the fair?
EC: The Ferris wheel. That was amazing. And cotton candy.
Int: Your favorites!
EC: Now that was me, I don’t think the kids were, now let me see…it might have been late years, they protest me going and I enjoyed it so, one year, they said, ‘Mother, you are not taking us to no fair this year.’
Int: Cause you had to much fun!
EC: No because they were old enough to go to the fair by themselves!
Int: By themselves! Okay
EC: And their mother had taken them to the fair.
Int: And you enjoyed going.
EC: Yes. They used to say, ‘Oh no, I think she’s the one wanting to go to the fair. I have always enjoyed the fair.
Int: Okay now some of those other businesses we got to as far as sixth and Kellum, was it you who was telling me about a skating rink?
EC: Yes, there was a skating rink there on seventh and it was right off of Bath on the south side of seventh street. There was an alley-like, we had allies in the fairgrounds, and just cross the alley was the ice dock where they made ice and you would turn your little deal if you need 50 pounds, 75 pounds, at the skating rink, it was ran and owned by the Charles brothers. The skating rink. And those who might not be familiar with things that were earlier in the fairground they can probably relate to the eastside theater.
Int: Eastside theater
EC: Eastside theater faced there, and the skating rink faced seventh street.
Int: Seventh street
EC: And in there, that was all most like a little shopping center a beginning anyway cause there was a laundry mat.
Int: Oh on that strip on Bath
EC: Yes on Bath, Eastside theater, there was a man, I was trying to place his name, was it, Mr. Thomas or Thomson, I think it was Thomas. Then there was the Eastside theater, then there was Bill’s cleaners, and on down, there was a man, they called it Buck’s, and Buck’s had a service station right across the tracks.
Int: Uh huh. That was my uncle, that was Uncle Buck.
EC: Uncle Buck! Yeesss, everybody knew him.
Int: Everybody knew him. His name was Lewis Grisby and he married by aunt, mother’s sister.
EC: I never…I don’t think nobody knew unless his immediate family, but the public, they knew that was Buck’s.
Int: Never knew his name was Lewis, unless his immediate family.
EC: And he has good business fixing cars.
Int: Yes he did. Okay, now this is from 1955 and on Bath we have, they called it Louis’s garage, that’s Uncle Buck.
EC: I never knew the name and I know how many others!Int: The name was never out there. We never knew that. But there was a coffee shop and we’re talking about that same side of the street.
EC: Same side on Bath.
Int: The Melody Record shop
EC: Yes! I kept saying there was something I’m missing because there was something else…that record shop.
Int: Now, remember Hermann…
EC: Herbert!
Int: Herbert!
EC: Herbert Hunda
Int: Was that where he got started in the record shop?
EC: I’m not sure because he was a radio announcer
Int: Seemed like he there…
EC: With gospel music on Sundays. And he was very popular with the gospel music.
Int: He was very popular, and when he left there, I know when they closed that business on Bath, he opened another shop on Eastern.
EC: 23rd.
Int: This one was on Eastern.
EC: Before he moved it, 23rd. Then his business grew so he started selling cryrose bibles, anything pertaining to…
Int: Anything pertaining to church things.
EC: Yes. And since we were talking about your Uncle Buck, and by him dealing with cars, I thought of Joe Coleman because, no it was Rory Coleman, because he dealt with motorcycles. So we had Black folk…
Int: Now where was that?
EC: He didn’t have a shop.
Int: Okay but he repaired, he worked on…
EC: He didn’t work on, yes he did work on them, but he was noted for riding motorcycles.
Int: Joe Coleman.
EC: Joe Coleman, he lived on the eastside, and I been trying to think…where did he live and where did he have his shop…because, he was amazing because during that time, didn’t too many have a motorcycle less then own, ride one.
Int: That’s true, that’s true.
EC: And that’s why he stood out in my mind. Yes he did. And Red Kilgore. And who else was that…
Int: Red!
EC: They were connected with Joe Coleman and I’m trying to think,
Int: Red Kilgore’s a mechanic. He’s a mechanic. He’s still around isn’t he? Red’s still around?
EC: Yes, right he finally retired, and he sold that one, land on Eastern.
Int: Eastern, uh huh.
EC: Uh huh, sure did. Kenneth Kilgore’s brother.
Int: Uh huh, Kenneth’s brother. And hopefully I’ll get a chance to sit down and talk with Kenneth too because I know they were among your neighbors in the area, in the area where you used to live.
EC: Right.
Int: I want to kind of go down…now this is 1955. In 1955, you were still at your house right?
EC: Yes.
Int: Okay 1955…and your address was 7…
EC: 722.
Int: 722. Now, Melinda Guess?
EC: That’s correct.
Int: Who is that?
EC: That’s my grandmother.
Int: Oh! Melinda Guess is your grandmother? Okay!
EC: She raised her grandkids as sisters and brothers. She only had three children and she only had three grandchildren. That was Don, Ben, and Eloise.
Int: Mhhm. And she just raised all of you.
EC: All of us. That is my grandmother. Melinda Guess. That’s right.
Int: Melinda Guess. Okay and then, this right here says a home furnishings place. Is this where the lawyers office…
EC: Okay it was, that building was called Bruce and (Ro Anne?) building. And it faced 7th street like my house faced Rhode Island. And within this building, they had their law office there, downstairs was Gude’s furniture store.
Int: Gude’s that’s right. G-U-D-E.
EC: That’s right.
Int: So who owned Gude’s, do you know?
EC: He did. He’s deceased now and also his son.
Int: Oh it was Gude? Mr. Gude?
EC: That was his last name.
Int: Ohh, was he White?
EC: No, he was Black. I think they came in from Guthrie. I don’t know. But I know it was Gude’s furniture store. There was a beauty shop in there. Then there was something like a bar joint like, and Mr. Bruce’s older son, one of the set of the older children, that son, I was trying to think of his name…
Int: Mr. Bruce was the attorney.
EC: was the attorney and his partner was (Ro Anne)? And I’m thinking that on the end of the building, on the east end of that building was the cleaners, then the beauty shop, then the little café, that’s what they called it, the café, Gude’s furniture, and then when Gude furniture store started fading out, but they were there for quite a while. Then, as that building curved like an “L,” they open a little place where they could come and pay utility bills. And I was an attendant there.
Int: You were an attendant there? You worked there?
EC: Yeah, I worked there.
Int: Oh, for O,G&E?
EC: Well, I worked for all utilities.
Int: Oh all utilities.
EC: Yes. Gas and water. They paid, but it didn’t last too long.
Int: It was like a substation.
EC: Exactly, it was like a substation.
Int: Okay, so speaking of that job, what other jobs did you have back in that day?
EC: I worked for the first Headstart program within Oklahoma City with Dr. Shriver from Washington D.C. Kandi Scott, and I’m trying to think of father’s name, where Children’s House is now, which we call Early Years of Educational Base for Catholics was Blessed Morten. And that was…
Int: It was actually a convent.
EC: Yes
Int: And a catholic school.
EC: Yes. And later they turned it into the Head Start. And it was called “The Children’s House” so that was the first Headstart program in Oklahoma City and it was in the fairground on 7th street. And that’s where I received my montessori training.
Int: Oh how exciting!
EC: And I worked as, the social teacher or whatever had moved on up to director and I was director of Walnut Grove Headstart Center
Int: Walnut Grove. Walnut Grove is on the south side? Where’s…?
EC: Yeah, it’s coming back west but it’s not as far west, kind of southwest. I worked there as a…But my point is, it was the first Headstart program.
Int: And it was located in the northeast community.
EC: And they came in from Washington for the opening and to check…
Int: I remember that. You remember what years that was?
EC: That’s what I was…I cannot think…but Mary Helen Nelson, I can get all of that from
Int: Well Mary Helen and I used to go to the same church. We came up out of the church of Living God.
EC: I already know. So you know can, well she will know. The year and what have you because she was a director after Kandi Scott.
Int: And she just recently retired from there maybe about three or four years ago.
EC: Yes. Yes, because her husband, Roy Nelson goes to Fairview with me.
Int: Yes he does! He’s always been there.
EC: But I am sure she can give you the whole history of the beginning of the Headstart program which would be great history for those in the Headstart program now.
Int: I did an interview with her as a part of my church in my church newsletter the year she retired.
EC: Oh good.
Int: I got pictures and everything.
EC: Wow! Cause I was at her, two to threes…
Int: You were at the retirement banquet!
EC: The retirement banquet. I was trying to think, what did I go too…
Int: Okay, so, you went to Langston on your band scholarship? Were there subjects at Langston that you took that prepared you for your work in other places?
EC: Well, uh Kelly, you asked me earlier, could I remember any of my teachers names and her names was Mr.s Kelly. She taught chemistry. And Mr. Harborough, he taught history. Yes and I stayed in Sanford Hall.
Int: Oh Sanford Hall? That would be? J.W.’s mother and father
EC: I’m trying to think…is J.W. Jr.? What?
Int: He’s Jr. The one that’s a doctor now is Jr. His dad is who was at Langston.
EC: And that’s how they named him.
Int: Oh you stayed at Sanford Hall! How exciting!
EC: And his mother and father and Dr. Sanford now, they were members of Fairview. Now he belongs somewhere else, but we’re hoping that he comes back to Fairview.
Int: His mother was my teacher in fifth grade.
EC: Yes, yes! Mrs. Connie Sanford and she and Ms. Fairly would take part, Reverend Fairly’s wife. Yes, Sanford and Fairly. And they would come to school, both of them liked to bake and cook and would bring me little goodies, because my grandmother had raised us, they just knew there was a need. I never asked. They would just come to the campus and bring me all kinds of goodies and stuff.
Int: Yes, isn’t that wonderful?
EC: I think of the goodness of the lord to me. I know that. I will voice that. And I want the world to know.
Int: Absolutely.
EC: I know from whence I came, how I came, nothing but the grace of God with people as instruments that have been within my life. Then after Headstart, I retired, I was trying to go to school, work, then the kids, the cleaners, it was just a little much, so I retired there. Then I started back to work for Community Action Program and I was there for ten years.
Int: And where…?
EC: I worked like Roosevelt on 29th and Ave. I mean on 23rd.
Int: 23rd.
EC: They were on 29th off of Sunny Lane. That was the beginning and then they moved from there to 23rd. Basically, before they moved, I was an eligibility counselor, determining if they were eligible to receive the free medications and also when I moved, we moved over there, no, I’m ahead of myself. When we were still on 29th, I was eligibility counselor to see if people were eligible to receive the services like training their G.E.Ds, like jobs, and what is…on the job training
Int: OJT
EC: Yes, all of that. But when we moved on 23rd, that’s when I became an eligibility counselor to determine if people were eligible to receive Medicare, medication.
Int: To receive all those different services and everything.
EC: Then after that, the Convalescent Center that’s housed, it isn’t now, but when I was there it was housed and there was an eligibility…
Int: On 23rd?
EC: It was the County Convalescent Center. And I was a social worker there. That’s where I retired from, so I worked ten years for the city, ten for the county.
Int: Little girl from the fairgrounds.
EC: Hey, God is good. And y’all ought to tell it!
Int: I am just amazed.
EC: Yes!
Int: So, while you were still in high school, did you have any part-time jobs within the community?
EC: No, not really, because other than, we had the Y teams, and the Y, and the Ms. Smith, she was the physical ed teacher. She’s deceased now.
Int: She was the physical ed teacher at Douglass?
EC: At the Y. I was involved a lot at the Y while I was in school. And she taught…let’s see…
Int: Which Y was it, on 2nd?
EC: Um…Yes!
Int: or 4th street? On 2nd street?
EC: Yes! And later second, and she taught the interpretive dance to the Lord’s Prayer.
Int: You were a interpretive dancer?
EC: And I have three daughters, two sons, and my three daughters, I taught it to them, and we all done it for our church Mother’s Day function one time.
Int: Did you? I wonder if anyone videotaped that. I would love to have a videotape of it.
EC: I doubt it during that day and time.
Int: Oh my goodness.
EC: And that’s where I learned that, you talking about being involved, that’s how I learned that. From the Y.
Int: Did you ever go to any of those…
EC: Socials? Yes ma’am! That was our social life and our entertainment, and I would say our nighttime recreation. It was. Ms. Brough would be the chaperone.
Int: They had chaperones. You were not going to be out there down late at night!
EC: Yes and our little party, it wasn’t even a party, it was a social! But they were there, the chaperones.
Int: With lemonade and cookies!
EC: Yes! And enjoyed it!
(They laugh)
Int: They had more fun!
EC: Yes!
Int: Isn’t that wonderful. Those are such pleasant memories.
EC: It is. Absolutely.
Int: I wanted to ask, this question came through to my mind because people have said for me to interview this particular person, but I find nothing in the research directories that I’ve looked through from back in the day. Did Russell Perry grow up in the fairgrounds anywhere in the area where you lived?
EC: No.
Int: What about Joe Clydus?
EC: Joe…
Int: You know Joe?
EC: I know Joe Clydus and Russell. How long you just figured out I’d been here? (she laughs) Yeah, I know them both.
Int: And know them well, because they were kind of all in that social circle kind of community service type things.
EC: I’m not going to say yes or no at this time, I can’t remember either one of them raised in the fairgrounds. Now, Joe had an aunt that was a twin, and he might be the son of one of those twins and he had a cousin named Laverne Davis who, but they lived up on 9th, that wasn’t the fairgrounds.
Int: Okay, that was beyond.
EC: Mhhm. And I am trying to think, it seems like Russell…something like that.
Int: Okay, I was just curious because people have said that, but as I’ve said, I’ve gone through my research of looking at names and people who lived around the fairgrounds area. I don’t see an indication for those last names at all. So now, last week when we were talking, you were talking about the different businesses, kind of, for that listing, that things that you’d remembered from being in the area.
EC: Oh yes, I’d be glad to do that. From the, okay, we were on the grocery stores and you said you were going to do the churches separate, so I had those down, but since you’re gonna already skip that… But I know that was…yeah 4th. The funeral homes. Rolfe’s Funeral Home.
Int: Okay. Now where on 4th street…Rolfe’s Funeral Home…
EC: Was on the corner…okay Washington Park was here, and they were across the street on the corner…
Int: Washington Park. That’s where they were.
EC: And the little green ambulance. I remember the color.
Int: A green ambulance.
EC: They had another one but that’s the only one I saw during that time. Rolfe funeral home and right on the next corner it was years after going back west, there was McCabe funeral home. Later they added the name Davis.
Int: It was McCabe’s first.
EC: It was McCabe’s funeral home. And they were in the fairgrounds. And also Rich’s Service Station. Rolfe Funeral Home was here. The Rich’s Service Station was here on that corner.
Int: Okay.
EC: I forgot that. As I was talking, then it came to me. Uh huh. And the grocery store, I already mentioned about Sunny Norwood there on 7th and Eastern. We had (unintelligible) the name sons and Allen’s, then we had (Rilce’s?) grocery there on 6th and Vancheel, and you told me, no that was Griffin’s, and it was, it’s Griffin and her father that was Massachusetts.
Int: 6th and Massachusetts.
EC: Tellus. And, Wilson’ was on Vancheel. That was on…
Int: Griffin’s, uh huh.
EC: And A&B Grocery right off of 5th and Bath which they expanded and moved farther and there was, down from Allen’s on the corner of 5th and Kellum, they later opened up a little store, it was mostly like a convenience store, and it was called Spark’s Grocery store.
Int: Okay, on 5th and Kellum.
EC: On 5th and Kellum was Spark’s Grocery store.
Int: Was it on Kellum or was it on 5th street? Do you remember? Was it right on?
EC: It was 5th. And they owned a two story, looked like it was…and that faced 5th.
Int: I remember that.
EC: The grocery store faced Kellum so it was something like a U that would turn back this way. The Sparks’s. And I had forgot about them. We had service stations also. And it was Booker Tolivers oh that’s been so long ago…and the Ayers had a service station right there on 7th and Missouri.
Int: Okay, the who?
EC: Booker Tolivers
Int: Oh the Tolivers…and you said, oh the Ayers, oh his descendants.
EC: No, not his descendants, his name was Mr. Ayers.
Int: Like Air?
EC: No, Ayers.
Int: Oh Ayers, Ayres, one of those.
EC: Now he was Portwood Williams father-in-law.
Int: Mr. Portwood Oh!
EC: His last name is Lucille Williams and Mr. Ayers is Mrs. Williams father.
Int: Okay, got it.
EC: And that’s where she gets history from too.
Int: Yes Mr. Portwood, he’s at 5th street.
EC: Honey, yes. Yes
Int: I’m gonna try to get in contact with him. Because boy that’s a businessman.
EC: Oh yes he is.
Int: That man’s a businessman.
EC: And we already dealt with the cleaners. And the ice dock…
Int: Now the ice dock, I have that it was called French’s?
EC: I never knew the name. Everybody didn’t even know! Everybody just say the ice dock.
Int: And you were telling me, there was something that happened there that involving someone that we know from the community.
EC: An incident, yes. Horace Stevenson’s brother, his older brother, and that…
Int: Can you remember his name?
EC: I sure can’t.
Int: I can’t remember that boy’s name. But I know them so well.
EC: Uh huh. Because of his arm, and if anyone see him, that’s why. It was an accident where, just speared his arm on the ice dock, you know they cut the ice blocks, something in…
Int: Something in that machine
EC: In that machine, uh huh
Int: Hit his arm.
EC: Uh huh. There at the ice dock.
Int: He must have been quite a young man, because I’ve never known him not to, you know,
EC: The brother?
Int: I’ve never known him not to have a full arm. I’ve known him for years.
EC: Yes, that’s right. He was a kid. That’s why.
Int: And he was working there.
EC: He was working at the ice dock. And for our recreation, we had the Dunbar’s swimming pool.
Int: Yes!
EC: That was a big deal! Yes, we are talking about the fairgrounds, but most schools in the area within the Black community had the swimming pools and that was a big deal.
Int: Every summer!
EC: That was the biggest pool in the world!
Int: It felt like it was deep?
EC: Deep!
Int: I think it was only like 4 feet.
EC: (laughs) Yes! And I said, my goodness!
Int: I thought that was the coolest thing, they a swimming pool at school.
EC: And we already done that, then we had Page Stadium, the stadium for Douglass High School. Was on 4th street as Lottie runs right into it where they have the little soccer and all of that. That was…
Int: Oh, that’s Page Stadium! It’s right next to Washington Park!
EC: That’s it! That was Douglass’s stadium. That’s where all the football games.
Int: That was the home stadium.
EC: That was Douglass’s stadium was right there. That was part of our entertainment. And you already just said The Washington Park there. And for our education we had the Dunbar Elementary.
Int: You went there, of course.
EC: Went to Dunbar.
Int: That was the fairgrounds elementary school.
EC: Right and everybody of that age and area and time, you went to high school after your elementary there.
Int: So you went from the 6th grade to Douglass.
EC: 7th
Int: So 7th-12th was at Douglass.
EC: Yes at Douglass.
Int: Wow, do you remember any of your teachers at Dunbar? You remember who was principal?
EC: Oh, I remember Ms. Bruce was my teacher.
Int: Was she related to Mr. Bruce the attorney?
EC: That’s Shirley, Bruce Darrel’s mother.
Int: Okay. Yes very related.
EC: (laughs) yes, that’s her mother and Ms. Sanford, she taught there. And Ms. Jones. She was kind of heavy-set and she was Police Jones’s wife, so we had protection and we had policemen.
Int: Oh yes. We had Black policemen for the Black neighborhood. I remember with Mr. Muller.
EC: Bo Baker was one of the originals. He was so well-known even with the youth, other than those though who were doing the wrong thing, that the kids made a poem up of Bo Baker. Bo Baker, Bo Baker, the cigarette-maker. The paper was thin, his finger went it, Bo Baker, Bo Baker, what a fix you’re in.
(laughs)
EC: And I am 73 and still remember that! And then we had police and we already mentioned Police Jones, and uh…Ava….I almost called it then…her name was Sharp, who was Ms. Jones’s daughter. She taught at Dunbar also, then she ended up being the physical ed teacher up there at Douglass.
Int: I know who you’re taking about.
EC: Dark skin…yes she taught at Dunbar too.
Int: Isn’t it something? Something that never fails to amaze me is the different decades that we’re coming from, a generation, another generation, and we all can sit and talk about the same things cause these things were constant and consistent in our community. And I know time brings about change and the change has to take place, and even though it was happening, there was some things that we can always count on, some things we can always depend on for being in our community.
EC: Yes, yes! And the richness of our community now, we can really relate to it!
Int: We can know how valuable it was at that time and we had no idea you know.
EC: Yes! And then you know what, they talk about these gangs and what have you, the fairground had a gang and the name was the gangbusters.
Int: Really? They had a gang?
EC: The bad gang, they’d beat you up!
Int: Were they a bad gang?
EC: oh yes! They were gang busters.
Int: You remember the kids that were in them?
EC: Uh, oh, the Browns, the
Int: Renfroes I bet? You remember Renfroes?
EC: Oh yeah, yes I know June now…
Int: Those were big guys…
EC: But that was even before their time.
Int: Oh!
EC: They were even older than me! The gangs, the gangbusters
Int: The gangbusters!
EC: And nobody would come past Lottie because they knew the gangbusters would get them.
Int: Really?!
EC: Oh yes. Ask anybody about the gangbusters when you interview them!
Int: I will ask that!
EC: We had gangs, we had police and safety, we had entrepreneurs…The east side, which is the fairground, was short of nothing, and we never knew we were poor until we heard the word property.
Int: We never knew it!
EC: We had a happy, happy time.
Int: And had plenty!
EC: And the photographers….And had plenty! And they sold, so that’s where I could bring in Rosa, Ms. Warner,
Int: Rose Warner.
EC: Because we had plenty to eat, plenty of clothes, if they had to make them out of (unintelligible) and broomstick skirts, and Rosa Warner who was a seamstress from her heart.
Int: Extraordinaire.
EC: Yes, uh huh. She was.
Int: She made dresses that looked store-bought. I remember that.
EC: That’s right.
Int: They looked like they were purchased.
EC: Yes. And we did mention photographers too. I mean we had any profession you need in that area.
Int: And had several other, it was like, I’m noticing from looking in these directories, that, pockets of the fairgrounds community had its own, they were almost, each one, self-sustaining.
EC: Yes!
Int: Cause you had your area like from 4th to about Wisconsin or Missouri, right in there, or uh, Nebraska, you had a cleaners, you had grocery stores, you had mechanics you had a postal shop…
EC: And churches! Yes, whatever your need was!
Int: And churches! And then you’d go over to another segment, and you’d have your cleaners, your laundromat, you had each, you never had to go far.
EC: And Mr. Williams, Mr. Portwood Williams?
Int: Portwood, uh huh.
EC: His mother lived on Rhode Island.
Int: What and Rhode Island?
EC: 7th and Rhode Island. It was my house, then it was a vacant lot, then it was the Woody’s house. Next door was Mrs. Clara Williams, that was his mother.
Int: Mrs. Clara Williams…I’ve seen her name.
EC: Stark’s Barn, 5th street.
Int: Was she on Rhode Island or was she on 7th?
EC: She was on Rhode Island. Clara Williams. 720…something.
Int: (consulting pages) Mrs. Clara Williams, 714.
EC: That was my block! And Willy Woody and Walter Woody.
Int: Now these Woodys, are they the Woodys that are in the ministry now? You know you got some Woodys…
EC: No, that’s another…but there is a branch of Woodys in ministry. Woola June Woody. Can you place her name? Salma Woody? That’s it.
Int: No
EC: Well Woola June Woody has a son who was the assistant pastor at Fairview and now he has his own church there in Shawnee. That’s the set of Woodys. That’s Walter…And Charlene Carter and her kids, Clara Finley all of them, they come out of that Woody clan, from their mothers.
Int: Clara Finley, is she related to Dr. Finley?
EC: No. Finley Autoshop, them Finleys. Johnny Finley.
Int: Okay, Okay.
EC: But she was, her mother come out of that.
Int: Now I’m gonna go here on Rhode Island and this is in the 600 block, I’m gonna talk about the Mason Temple Church, Emma’s sandwich shop which was at 613, that would have been the block before you 613.
EC: We were trying to think of that shop. What was the name of it?
Int: Emma’s sandwich shop.
EC: Emma’s sandwich shop.
Int: And see now these are the names that are listed in this directory, not necessarily the names that we knew them as back then. Because we knew them as the people working in the shop.
EC: Well the Ramses and Rita Ford.
Int: They had Mansy Ramses,
EC: Yes, the Ramses. Joe Ramses and Donald Ramses, and the older sister, oh girl, what is Dorothy’s name? Worn. Worn and Dorothy. Those are the Ramses children. The names I just called. But Joe, he’s living in Houston. And Donald…I’m now thinking…and Dorothy she’s now deceased. Yes and do you have Ophelia Doubty? She’s next door.
Int: Mrs. Doubty. Ophelia Doubty
EC: That’s one of my best friend’s mother.
Int: Now did she have…was she involved at all with Ophelia’s and Mabel’s restaurant?
EC: That’s another one. They stayed here. Mrs. Doubty and there was a place of business right here and we could not think of the name of it.
Int: It says Mabel and Ophelia’s place.
EC: That’s it.
Int: Now Mrs. Doubty, she was at Church of the Living God too. And she passed away about three years ago.
EC: Has it been that long?
Int: Uh huh, she was on 37th, she lived down the street from my mother, on NE 37th off Prospect.
EC: But see my connection there is her daughter Rita.
Int: Rita, I know Rita!
EC: You know Rita? That’s my best friend.
Int: Yes, I know her! Cause I used to... my little girl and I, my baby girl and I would go down to Mrs. Doubty’s and plant flowers in their flower bed. And I met Rita and there’s another one.
EC: Edith?
Int: Edith!
EC: Jeneta was younger, but Mrs. Doubty raised Jeneta.
Int: Yes, one was raised and one was her daughter.
EC: Edith was the daughter, Al was the son.
Int: Yes and Al passed away not too long ago too. Yes I knew them.
EC: Uh huh. And the Millers,
Int: Okay the…Wendy Miller?
EC: Yes! And Bernelle Miller is their mother.
Int: Isn’t that something?
EC: Miller okay, at Prospect, Wendy, what is her last name? Anyway she directed the choir there at Prospect. That’s her grandmother. Okay, and they lived in the fairground, cause her father’s name is Bernelle Miller. He’s in a nursing home now. But she came from there, the Millers.
Int: Okay, now at 631 North Rhode Island, there’s Powell’s Café.
EC: That’s what it was! What corner did you say?
Int: It’s on the corner of 6th and Rhode Island.
EC: That’s it. We never knew…like, you said Buck’s? We never knew the name of 6th and Jordan. We never knew the name of that place! Tell me one more time.
Int: Powell’s Café. P-O-W-E-L-L. Powell’s Café. And then, when you go across the street, you got Sun’s grocery and a couple of residents’ oldest homes, and then Hot Ziggity. Fred Albritten.
EC: Yes! Oh…there is no way you can remember it all.
(laughs.)
Int: And the Celestines. You know the Celestines?
EC: Yes, the Celestines, quite a few on that corner of 7th. (Unintelligible) folk. They came from Luther but they were there in the fairgrounds for years. Yes!
Int: And then there was some more residences there, Kermit Green.
EC: Now that’s the one that had the big family. Now we need to put them in there. Kermit Green.
Int: Okay, Kermit Green. And did you go to school with some of those kids?
EC: They were younger, but my kids played with them. And most of them were beauticians and Betty, which is the oldest, she worked as a cook there at the Headstart children’s center.
Int: Oh Betty…was her name Green?
EC: Green. Betty Green. But she married a Dean. Alfred Dean.
Int: Oh! Yes! So the Deans were in Oklahoma City?
EC: Oh yes honey, the Deans. There are the Greens, so that’s another name we need to mention with the large family, the Greens. And next to the Greens was the Williams and next to the Williams was the Bryants. And next to the Bryants were the Williams.
Int: Bryants, Louis Bryants.
EC: And there’s my other friend, she lives in California and her name is Norma Ruth Bryants. We were majorettes together. And next to Mrs. Bryant was Mrs. Willians, Portwood Williams’s momma.
Int: Clara.
EC: Clara Williams. And then was Ms. Woody.
Int: Okay, and we have one called Zeb Brown.
EC: Zebb Brown, that was a vacant lot, and that’s when they built that house. Right there. It was my house, a vacant lot, and then the Woodys, but later years, it was my house, the Browns had built a house, and then Mrs. Woody, and then Mrs. Williams.
Int: So they built, actually built a home?
EC: Mhhm, right in that vacant lot. Yes.
Int: And then of course, Fairview. Now, what about Reverend Reed? Did the Reeds live…?
EC: Reverend Reed, yes! They lived on Kellum, between 6th and 7th!
Int: And I’ve seen that Reed and I didn’t know if that was…
EC: That’s them, that’s Reverend Reed!
Int: Okay. Alright!
EC: Cause they often say, oh, how did he used to say it? He says, as long as I’ve known a Fairview, it’s been an Eloise. He likes to tease!
(They laugh)
Int: That’s great!
EC: But he was on Kellum.
Int: That’s just like having a family.
EC: It is my family. And they treat me as a family. But sometimes they don’t, they act like I’m one of them pews!
(They laugh)
Int: Well, Eloise, I wanted to tell you that it’s really a pleasure having the opportunity to sit down here and just make this stroll down memory lane with you. My heart is so happy that you’re still here to talk about all of these things. You see, so what you’re doing today is very valuable. I really appreciate you taking the time to sit and talk with me. And I told you that when we were talking on the phone that you don’t know me, but when you see my face, you’ve seen that face.
EC: Yes, when I saw that face.
Int: And you know secretary is a kind of life that you’re kind of in the background of things, you know.
EC: Yes, yes.
Int: My first job, I was Rosie Turner’s secretary.
EC: Really!
Int: Yes, and that was when he first started working for the city, so we’re always kind of in the background, but we see everything.
EC: Don’t be missing nothing!
Int: But it’s just excellent to have an opportunity to talk with you. Now you’ve already made some different statements about the value of the community and knowing where you come from. You have any closing remarks you’d like to make?
EC: My closing remarks, I do want to mention some others, because there is no way you can remember and think of everything, but bits and pieces, and I’ve thought during our conversation, I am going to give you my closing remarks, I did want to mention, Butler’s Café. They sold them hot links. You may have forgotten, but when someone goes to talking, I am certainly happy to know that the Lord has chosen you to get the history of the fairgrounds. We have other duties besides a pulpit. The pulpit needs help and the functioning of human beings, mentally, physically, and spiritually. And I am happy to sit with somebody who knows the value of knowing where you came from, what it is about when it’s erased, and nobody knows nothing. And I thank god he has put you on his map…and I want you to know, you are an instrument and I pray for you as I am talking right now, cause I don’t have to pray to you, I pray to him. To give you strength and courage to continue on. And those are my closing words. NEVER forget where you came from.
Int: Amen! Thank you so much! That’s so excellent. Feel the power!
EC: Yes Lord! Mhhm! Nobody but him.